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Old October 18th, 2020, 10:04 PM
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Advice on a Map

Okay....so I just finished making a map. Originally, made it for the heck of making something visually I liked. But as I got to finishing, some of family became interested in the idea, and now thinking maybe it's some that would actually be fun to play (Seeing as I have quite a large family and it's a map that maybe could support enough of my family to be worth it).

That said, being that it was designed to look cool, I'm having trouble deciding exactly what balanced starting positions would be. Mind, it's a giant map. So I'm attaching the original file here. As well as just my preliminary for the heck of it ideas on player starts and glyphs. Mind, with no actual map-making experience, I have no idea how right or wrong this set-up is.

But, basic idea would be either 6 or 8 player map. In 6, basically, a defender on each side of the river in the respective defensive fortifications. They would be teamed up respectively with an offensive strike force starting near the opposing defender, and an offensive/defensive back-up force starting on the far parts of the map on the same side as the defender. So, in the provided just initial concept sketch, orange, lime, and violet would be one team; yellow, blue, and red another.

In 8 player, you add in a smaller miscellaneous force--cyan joins orange's team while purple join's red's.

Now, the other idea I had but didn't create was having 4 teams of 2, with two teams of defender plus back-up force, and two teams of quick strike forces (each of these quick strike teams would on diagonally opposite sides of the river in theory facing the defenders). Could be terrible.

Anyways, here's the map in question. Obviously it's not a map I'll ever get to build in person, unfortunately, but still. Could use thoughts on ways to make it actually playable in an enjoyable fashion for multiple players.

My Off the Cuff Idea for Setup

The original map





Or maybe I'm just crazy. Either way, thoughts from experienced folk would be appreciated.
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Old October 19th, 2020, 12:12 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

Even for 8 players, It's WAY to big a map to be played on, unless you want a 2500+ point 8 hour game, as otherwise with less points then the battle will only happen on a mall part, or you will spend over 75% of the the time running around the board. I could see either 4 simultaneous games going in each quadrant, or maybe a "campaign" mode where you play a game in one area then move on to another the next game.
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Old October 20th, 2020, 02:18 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

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Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Even for 8 players, It's WAY to big a map to be played on, unless you want a 2500+ point 8 hour game, as otherwise with less points then the battle will only happen on a mall part, or you will spend over 75% of the the time running around the board. I could see either 4 simultaneous games going in each quadrant, or maybe a "campaign" mode where you play a game in one area then move on to another the next game.
Has anyone ever considered doubling every figure's move value (and potentially range) to help accommodate a bigger a map? Or potentially even triple the move and double the range? I wonder if that would work or not.
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Old October 20th, 2020, 02:21 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Even for 8 players, It's WAY to big a map to be played on, unless you want a 2500+ point 8 hour game, as otherwise with less points then the battle will only happen on a mall part, or you will spend over 75% of the the time running around the board. I could see either 4 simultaneous games going in each quadrant, or maybe a "campaign" mode where you play a game in one area then move on to another the next game.
Has anyone ever considered doubling every figure's move value (and potentially range) to help accommodate a bigger a map? Or potentially even triple the move and double the range? I wonder if that would work or not.
Definitely seems like it could work. Imagine trying to plan around 18 move 14 Range Krav though . Iíve thought about a rule where you can double your move but if you do you canít attack that turn.

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Old October 20th, 2020, 05:01 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Even for 8 players, It's WAY to big a map to be played on, unless you want a 2500+ point 8 hour game, as otherwise with less points then the battle will only happen on a mall part, or you will spend over 75% of the the time running around the board. I could see either 4 simultaneous games going in each quadrant, or maybe a "campaign" mode where you play a game in one area then move on to another the next game.
Has anyone ever considered doubling every figure's move value (and potentially range) to help accommodate a bigger a map? Or potentially even triple the move and double the range? I wonder if that would work or not.
Definitely seems like it could work. Imagine trying to plan around 18 move 14 Range Krav though . Iíve thought about a rule where you can double your move but if you do you canít attack that turn.
OOooh, very interesting...that might work. I'd be willing to test it for you on this map (if i can get Hexscape working). Sounds like it might be perfect.

Ok so double move, no attack as an optional rule.

Also, I'm not against the idea of truly massive point armies.

That said, the idea I had is maybe add specific objectives. So perhaps--to win: conquer the other team's defensive structure (or rather, grab their flag) and control your own flag. Allow flags to be moved by individual heroes? I don't know, still trying to figure it out.

Eradicate the other player entirely seems like maybe the wrong path for this map. Ideas on other different objectives that might make this more playable?
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Old October 20th, 2020, 06:48 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

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Originally Posted by Jacobjohn1 View Post

OOooh, very interesting...that might work. I'd be willing to test it for you on this map (if i can get Hexscape working). Sounds like it might be perfect.

Ok so double move, no attack as an optional rule.

Also, I'm not against the idea of truly massive point armies.

That said, the idea I had is maybe add specific objectives. So perhaps--to win: conquer the other team's defensive structure (or rather, grab their flag) and control your own flag. Allow flags to be moved by individual heroes? I don't know, still trying to figure it out.

Eradicate the other player entirely seems like maybe the wrong path for this map. Ideas on other different objectives that might make this more playable?
A few common ways to make mega maps more playable are control points and teleportation.

For control points, you choose a number of areas on the map, usually represented by glyphs. If a figure 'controls' that glyph at the end of the round, the figures player earns points . The player with the most points at the end of round X wins. I commonly count 2 points for any figure on a control glyph and 1 point for any figure adjacent to one at the end of each round to help broaden the strategy a bit. This is nice because you can choose where on the map you want want the battles to take place, which can help even out development if they're placed well. Also, The amount of rounds you play before deciding the winner will directly influence how long the game is, so that gives you some control depending on how long you'd like to play (probably at least 12 rounds on this big boi map).

For teleportation, you chose a number of other spaces on the map to act as teleportation portals which you can also represent with glyphs (I use either Brandar glyphs or different colored glyphs to delineate from the control glyphs). Then, as part of a figures move, you may move onto a portal glyph and immediately place that figure onto any other unoccupied portal glyph on the map. Once again this gives you some creative control over how the map will play by deciding where figures may teleport to.

These may not be perfect scenario ideas, but they've been tried and true ways I've gotten away with some of my large maps in my casual friends play group in the past. Hope it helps or gives you some good fodder.
Cheers!
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Old October 21st, 2020, 10:34 AM
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Re: Advice on a Map

You can try playing by the HoSS Battlefront Game Rules and put Control Point glyphs around your map.
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... Battlefront Game Rules allow you to play Heroscape in a manner that is similar to the Battlefront series of video games. Maps have pre-designated Control Points which can be captured by either side at the end of a round. When one army has captured more Control Points than their opponentís army, then one or more wounds will be caused to the army with fewer Control Points. Battlefront Game Rules encourage different types of tactics and army builds as compared to a standard tournament style game of Heroscape.
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Old October 21st, 2020, 05:39 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

Control points works for me. Where all would you guys suggest putting control points for this? And how many? 1 for each major area. Or just a certain number based on the number of players? Different value control points even?

Also, consider putting Rannveig glyphs near both major starts. i admit that changes a lot of the game though--considering the terrain lends itself well to flying units to cross efficiently. Thoughts?
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Old October 21st, 2020, 06:44 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

One control point per either 96 or 144 hexes (in the middle of either four or six 24-hexers) sounds good - keeps them 16-24 hexes apart.
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Old October 21st, 2020, 09:33 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

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Originally Posted by rednax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Even for 8 players, It's WAY to big a map to be played on, unless you want a 2500+ point 8 hour game, as otherwise with less points then the battle will only happen on a mall part, or you will spend over 75% of the the time running around the board. I could see either 4 simultaneous games going in each quadrant, or maybe a "campaign" mode where you play a game in one area then move on to another the next game.
Has anyone ever considered doubling every figure's move value (and potentially range) to help accommodate a bigger a map? Or potentially even triple the move and double the range? I wonder if that would work or not.
Use the Glyph of Ivor and the Glyph of Valda.

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Old October 21st, 2020, 11:20 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

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Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Even for 8 players, It's WAY to big a map to be played on, unless you want a 2500+ point 8 hour game, as otherwise with less points then the battle will only happen on a mall part, or you will spend over 75% of the the time running around the board. I could see either 4 simultaneous games going in each quadrant, or maybe a "campaign" mode where you play a game in one area then move on to another the next game.
Has anyone ever considered doubling every figure's move value (and potentially range) to help accommodate a bigger a map? Or potentially even triple the move and double the range? I wonder if that would work or not.
Use the Glyph of Ivor and the Glyph of Valda.
Sure you could do that. But is there a reason? If a map is so big that it's necessary to expand figures' move/range, why not just add a house rule, whether an addition or multiplier. I feel like the endgame could get very slow, if your last figure Krug has been sitting on Valda the entire game, and now has to trek across the map with only 5 move.
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Old October 22nd, 2020, 07:07 PM
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Re: Advice on a Map

I fear Rednax may be right on that.


Okay....so here's what I'm thinking, after looking at map and considering.

The first thing. Control Point Glyphs. Basically, each side will have command points as mentioned earlier. These will win points towards actually winning the game.

Second, Command Point glyphs. These exist essentially as spawning methods. They also count for points at the end of the game if controlled. So, it is meant for up to 8 players. Deployment of figures does not occur as per usual heroscape rules. Players 1 and 2 have control of opposing fortifications. They will place figures as by normal rules, but are allowed to place figures over top of their command glyphs. There is a command point available at each. So long as a member of your team control one of these command points, you will be able to continue placement of figures.

Players, 3-8 place in the following ways. If your team controls its command points (2 per team), then you may place figures similar to Scraps rules. Deploy it anywhere without figures, nonadjacent to figures--figures placed adjacent to existing figures grant a single engagement strike against the placed figure. The only rules around this placement involve proximity to command point glyphs. Any placed figure must be greater than 1 turn of movement (plus abilities) away from a control glyph if possible.

If your team does not control both of its command point, figures may only be placed in the designated starting area.

Through the course of the game, the command point will be important in this way--Players 1 or 2 may opt to spend a numbered order marker (maximum of one per turn) to allow any other teammate (i.e., not Player 1 or 2 themself) to place any full non-unique squad back on the board. To be so replaced, the squad must be fully destroyed and placed in full. If the command point is controlled, they will be able to place said squad in any controlled portion of the board (within 6 spaces of a controlled command or control glyph). If the team has lost control of the command point, this squad may only be placed at designated start locations. Airborne elite so replaced may be placed at any location, as per their drop ability.

Movement is at a +4 normal bonus, but range is kept the same.

The game ends after any of the following conditions: both command glyphs of an enemy team have been captured, 3/4 of all control glyphs are controlled by one team, all units belonging to Player 1 or 2 are destroyed, or only squads by the commanding player (players 1 and 2) remain on a given team.

Control gylphs grant 2 points per full turn they are controlled with a capturing unit, and 1 point per full turn they are controlled without a capturing unit on it. Allied command glyphs grant 2. Enemy command points grant 6. Uncontrolled glyphs with an adjacent figure grant 1 point to the team of the adjacent figure (up to 1 point per team per glyph), but not control of the glyph.

Glyphs are controlled in the following manner: they may be captured as normal permanent glyphs. So long as an enemy unit does not capture the glyph, it remains under control of the owning player.


Okay okay. Let me first explain why I'm suggesting this.

1. Movement. By using scraps placement style, it ensures early game engagement--preventing long time for early set-up. This kind of evades the movement issue, by stopping the need to up movement drastically. Kind of short-hands the beginning of the game.

2. By allowing the commanding players a role in who gets brought back and denying them that same ability, it ensures inter-group teamwork, rather than delving off as essentially separate games. It furthermore ensures a need to protect the commanding players, beyond simply point totals. And, it gives a reason to target command points, which we would hope are likely to be very coveted positions.

3. By making squads recoverable, single heroes become more valuable and force different decisions about unit sacrifices.


So, before I talk about exact placement of starting areas, control points, and normal glyphs, thoughts? Does this seem more workable than a normal game? Does this sound fun? What might be issues or problems? What have I not thought about? iS THE +4 movement enough or should it be a full double?

Does this solve some of the issues we were talking about, or just make it worse?
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