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  #229  
Old March 29th, 2020, 06:08 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

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Oh dear...i totally forgot to comment here as well. Bigga voiced how I'm feeling. I actually felt like Just Enough wasn't that far off and just needed a few tweaks, so I was sad to see it go. For me, Hold Out is actually "less close". Way too many glyphs and I'm personally of the opinion Thorian should never be on a competitive map or in a tournament glyph pool. It swings the game too far to one side by completely negating a figures' ability. It makes it a little tougher sure for strong units like Nilfeim but much more difficult for units that "need" that ability like Sentinels or Minions. I will say that the short distance between opponents does make Thorian less of an issue, but that's also the very reason not to have it on the map; that is, if it's not going to have that much of an impact anyway, then don't have it.

I like Refraction...looks like a solid map
You're thinking of Ranneveig or however you spell it. Thorian is the one that prevents your figures from being targeted by normal ranged attacks.

I don't feel like either glyphs are appropriate for tournament play. I'd be interested to know if they've ever been used at GenCon ( @OrcElfArmyOne , any insights there?)

As for the map, I agree with what's been said by both Sir H and Bigga. I feel Just Enough was closer to the standard. They are definitely cool and interesting in terms of map design, but they are the kind of maps where the best experiences come as you draft for the map, and while I love playing those types of maps (and building them), they aren't standardized enough for tournament play. Certain armies will just be punished or favored too much.
They have not been used (as far as I know). The glyph pool has been the same since I started going in 2012 (Unique Attack, Wannok, Move, Healer, D20, Initiative).
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  #230  
Old March 29th, 2020, 11:31 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

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They have not been used (as far as I know). The glyph pool has been the same since I started going in 2012 (Unique Attack, Wannok, Move, Healer, D20, Initiative).
Good to know. Thanks! As a side note, I think that last is probably the most balanced glyph pool for a tournament setting.

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  #231  
Old March 29th, 2020, 11:45 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

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Quote:
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They have not been used (as far as I know). The glyph pool has been the same since I started going in 2012 (Unique Attack, Wannok, Move, Healer, D20, Initiative).
Good to know. Thanks! As a side note, I think that last is probably the most balanced glyph pool for a tournament setting.
It probably is. We have, and are, considering slight tweaks to the lineup (which is all I can say on that... )
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  #232  
Old March 30th, 2020, 12:16 AM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

I remember earlier years incorporated Defense +1 and Common Attack +1. I think they might have been usurped by the Healer glyph, I don’t remember the Healer glyph always being there.
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  #233  
Old March 30th, 2020, 09:40 AM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
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Quote:
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They have not been used (as far as I know). The glyph pool has been the same since I started going in 2012 (Unique Attack, Wannok, Move, Healer, D20, Initiative).
Good to know. Thanks! As a side note, I think that last is probably the most balanced glyph pool for a tournament setting.
It probably is. We have, and are, considering slight tweaks to the lineup (which is all I can say on that... )


Cool! My interest has been piqued.


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I remember earlier years incorporated Defense +1 and Common Attack +1. I think they might have been usurped by the Healer glyph, I don’t remember the Healer glyph always being there.
Thanks for the addition Cleon!

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  #234  
Old March 30th, 2020, 10:55 AM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I remember earlier years incorporated Defense +1 and Common Attack +1. I think they might have been usurped by the Healer glyph, I don’t remember the Healer glyph always being there.
Man, I'm glad we don't still use those...
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  #235  
Old March 30th, 2020, 02:42 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

I am going to drop this here and then post how I view Hold Out similarly and differently.

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Originally Posted by Dignan View Post
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Originally Posted by rednax View Post
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Map: Fragment
Date Uploaded: 9/30/2018
Requires: 1 RotV, 1 TT, 1 RttFF
Normal snow, normal ice
I'm curious what the reasoning is for the plethora of glyphs. I've always thought that 3 or 4 glyphs was a bit much, so I was surprised to see that you have 6 glyphs. And even more than that, 2 really powerful ones (Thorian), 2 moderately powerful ones (Wound), and 2 random glyphs on the highest ground of the map.

Would love to hear more about your thought process in designing this map, as it looks really cool.
It is a little glyph crazy, but the set glyphs are so vunerable and close to both sides, that they are a big risk to go for. The Wound glyph gives life to an otherwise dead spot in the map. No one would drop in there without it. As it stands now, it gives the player the option to think about going down there, but you are likely going to get that unit killed due to how close both armies are to.

As for the Thorian Glyph, that's the easiest one to remove. I'm actually 50/50 on playing with it there or not. It gives melee a little protection from a rat screen and getting lit up from height on the first turn. It really can mess with the first batch of order markers to see a unit hop on that and then your ranged units are forced to move forward. In the end, it makes players play a little outside their comfort zone and mixes things up. It may not be perfectly balanced, but it gives you unique to consider.

And the two random glyphs on the end are needed to keep everyone spread out. Without those, people can ignore one end on setup and focus on the middle.

Ultimately, with the glyphs in the middle being so easy to knock someone off of, they play a little differently. Normally I would never play with this many glyphs, but this one seems to work ok with this. But of course, feel free to take some off if you feel it's too crazy.
Interesting. All makes sense.

My only other concerns with the map would be about chokepoints and the possibility of each player claiming one of the far hills near the end of the game and then neither player wanting to move. Have either of these been a concern at all?
Well, that's possible. But at that point, both sides should hold a wound glyph and one player would be forced to move forward to stop the eventual wearing down of his army. I haven't seen that happen yet. The matches are usually pretty bloody right off the bat. But I'll have several more games of this played at NHSD and who knows what we'll see.
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  #236  
Old March 30th, 2020, 04:47 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

Right off the bat, Hold Out differs from Fragment in it's map size and terrain availability. Dignan is able to pull off an even longer map horizontally and even shorter map SZ to SZ. He's able to prevent a lot of off spawn sniping and bombing by utilizing the big LoS blockers from the Tundra and Forrest sets but not entirely. Even without Thorian, he's ok with that because the map's so close SZ to SZ that melee can close the gap really quickly (even 4-move figures can be over the hill in 2 turns).

Now inherently, without glyphs, Fragment might turn into a his-hill-my-hill fight, but each Wannok is placed perfectly where range from one hill can't see the opposite Wannok. This forces armies down into the fight to prevent a whittling down of each army from Wannok, and that's, IMO (Dignan didn't touch on this), where Thorian shines the most and makes it's worth placing on the map. If it's normal attacking range on the opposite side of the map, you can capture Thorian before making the long run across the map so you don't get sniped along the way.

There was one other map that inspired me and confirmed in my head that I could make my terrain restrictions work and that was Riposte, also by Dignan. This map again has elongated SZs but uses only a single RotV. Glyphs in the middle with high hills on each side make this map (very similar basic description of Fragment).

All of this is pretty similar to Hold Out and while Fragment utilizes a ton of LoS blockers, Riposte only has the RotV ruins. That confirmed that I had a huge advantage over Riposte with an added set of Jungle. There was still a lot of work to do over Fragment but instead of a ton of LoS blockers, I used the Jungle bonus to at least give extra defense against off spawn attacks. Thorian serves the same first round purpose as explained in Dignan's post and also serves the same purpose that I mentioned with late game rotation hill to hill. While special attackers on Fragment are limited by LoS, on Hold Out they have to attack against Jungle coverage. There is also a little bit more room to rotate on Hold Out and the SZs are also way more useful for such than Fragment.

Additional general thoughts on Thorian:
Spoiler Alert!
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  #237  
Old March 30th, 2020, 06:10 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

Dignan is one of the communities best and most prominent map designers...but kind of like me, not every map he’s made is balanced for tournament play, or even meant to be. I’ve had my fair share of maps that I have made that I don’t adjust because I like how they are even if there are some inherent issues for tournament play. I play them at home where those issues usually aren’t exposed or exploited. I feel the same way about some of his maps, and in particular both of these. Fragment and Riposte I would never have in a map pool for a tournament. They are cool and unique, but for a competitive seen there are too many concerning aspects that would give me pause. As a TD you never want someone to walk away from a game truly feeling like they lost to the map.

This all said, the beauty of what we do at the ARV is that we run a contest. You are more than welcome to build a map however you like because it’s the community who will decide the winner of the prize for the contest etc. the only reason we offer feedback and competitive insight is because after the contest we then do our due diligence to determine if the maps in the contests could and should be used at tournaments. If your goal is to have fun, submit and maybe win the contest then GREAT! But if the goal is to also potentially get your map tournament worthy, then there are some things much more meticulous to consider...hence all our feedback on things lately.

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  #238  
Old March 30th, 2020, 11:53 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

Have redone the pdfs and pics of nearly all maps in the OP.

Notable Changes:
  • The Hotways or the Highway renamed to Incendiary
  • Major revamp to Sabertooth Jungle
  • Slight changes to the outside of Riot around the glyphs
  • Lowered the SZ and initial road spaces of Dust Bowl
  • Once again messed with the sand area of Refraction. Also shifted all of the rock/lava area back a space to eliminate the back grass lane. Set glyphs to Kelda and Dagmar.
  • Minor aesthetic changes and changes to support terrain for stability across all maps
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  #239  
Old April 1st, 2020, 01:44 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

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Dignan is one of the communities best and most prominent map designers...but kind of like me, not every map he’s made is balanced for tournament play, or even meant to be. I’ve had my fair share of maps that I have made that I don’t adjust because I like how they are even if there are some inherent issues for tournament play. I play them at home where those issues usually aren’t exposed or exploited. I feel the same way about some of his maps, and in particular both of these. Fragment and Riposte I would never have in a map pool for a tournament. They are cool and unique, but for a competitive seen there are too many concerning aspects that would give me pause. As a TD you never want someone to walk away from a game truly feeling like they lost to the map.
Agreed. Each TD has to decide what fits their tournament scene. Here in DFW, we tend to bring in a varied map pool that attempts to push army builds. In a perfect world (for us), the players would construct their army to handle the map pool we issue. But that doesn't always work. I can definitely see how the maps we use wouldn't work with certain players.

At this point, I've been making maps for so long, I try to push the traditional "rules" I previously designed to when I started. That's how you end up with Thorian glyphs on my maps

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  #240  
Old April 1st, 2020, 02:47 PM
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Re: HS2010's Maps Thread - New Map - 3/22/20

Oh dear. Can a mod please take care of this? @Dad_Scaper

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