Strategy Guides in light of typical start zones

[Taeblewalker]

I have been stewing over this for a little while.

When we write strategy guides, we talk about the usefulness of a given unit - say, the Deathstalkers - in an army. We often discuss armies in the 500-600 point range, with 400 and 800 being more or less the assumed floor and ceiling most people use. This seems to work well. Except for one problem. Allow me to illustrate.

Let's say you read my Deathstalkers guide and get the idea that they are better for taking out heroes, while the Marrden Hounds work better against squads. The Soulborg immunity to Marro Plague allows both units to terrorize the battlefield without hampering one another. Fine, so far. Now let's imagine that since these are common squads, you draft two of each. They're common, right? So now you have spend 380 of your 500-600 points, and are all set to draft...

...nothing. Because you don't have any space left!

The same problem comes up if you buy 2 Blastatrons and only 1 Gladiatron squad, plus two Marrden Hounds. Granted, the hounds are double-space figures, but you've barely put the strategy together! You haven't even bought enough to make all three of the common units "common." The Glads might as well be unique - you can't afford the space to buy even a single-spaced hero. One should be able to buy two squads each of Blasts, Glads, and Marrdens, while spending the extra points on a single hero, perhaps Deathwalker 9000 or maybe original Drake plus Guilty McCreech.

You might, at this point, suggest simply doing away with "so many" double-spaced figures, but are two squads or even four really that much? With the large commons out these days - Grok Riders, Templar Cavalry, Deathstalkers, Marrden Hounds - and the likelihood of more to come, not to mention the 4-figure squads that are supposed to work together, like the Glad/Blast combo, or the Ashigaru/Ashigaru combo, each of which takes up 16 spaces for two of each squad (a not unreasonable to number) and at relatively little cost, it seems that the intended armies are not fitting onto even the relatively generous start zones of yesterday.

This is not too much of a stretch, it would seem, especially since units like Kato Katsuro encourage armies crawling with commons. The Daimyo is worth one space, two of each Ashigaru squad make it 17, and then two Tagawa Samurai Archer squads make it 25. With that army, already tipping the scales at one extra space for a 24-space start zone, the point cost is only 530. That is without adding any unique squads or Samurai heroes. Is all that really beyond what the designers had in mind for the Samurai army?

The same can be said for Zombies of Morandin. Six squads are par for many courses, yet they alone (at 360 points) take up the whole start zone. Marro Drones fare little better, as one is tempted to draft at least four squads to have some leeway before losing their full usefulness (dipping under 9 figures through attrition).

Let me emphasize that I am not talking about drafting ridiculous numbers of squads. I am simply saying two each of two different common squads come close to or equal the accepted "average" or even "large" start zones on many maps, and that armies like the zombie army that were meant to be large can make the 'Scaper seem embarassingly greedy in terms of demanding start zone space. They're supposed to be swarms!

The point I am coming to in the end is that when you consider the newer combo-heavy armies and when you try some of the strategies for the relevant units in the guides that we write, you should be careful to consider whether the units will fit on the start zone. This is noob wisdom on some levels, but with the push for combos and large, thematic armies like the Samurai, or the double-space common squads, suggest a necessity of start zone with around 30 spaces. Many of the old maps just can't cut it! The game ceases to be fun when you get excited to try a strategy, only to stand there like a jackass when 5 Gladiatrons won't fit into your start zone. 2 Glads, 2 Blasts, to Marrden Hounds, plus one 140 point hero - this should be a reasonable and fun, not an impossible, army to play.

Thoughts?

[Metaknight]

Yes, they are too small. While I don't own a ton of common squads, in competitive play, where the maps are usually not gigantic and usually have a starting zone of 25 or so spaces, I think they are too small. Hasbro has been encouraging common squads, whether it be for us to buy more or for gameplay, they should also adjust other standards like starting zone space. Plus, they even put 2 squads of zombies, so after just 3 packs of them you have already taken up 18 starting spaces, but still have 140 pts. left.

I agree with you completely. This is only really a problem in tournaments though, because casual players will usually let you squeeze some guys in, or go outside the zone a little.

[stumpy_man]

I think the starting zone size fits for what it is supposed to do which is limiting squadscape. Tourneys can take too long if you come fielding 35 squad figures. I do see where your coming from though with multiple double-base figures. Possibly starting zones can incorporate a figure limit. I don't know off the top of my head how this would work using both starting zones and max figures but this way you can have multiple double base figures.

[King's Knight]

While I haven't had to opportunity to participate in any large tournaments, the 24-space starting zone has always seemed far to small. Even trying to create a mixed orc army, you're limited to 2 and 2 of blade and arrow gruts when trying to fit in your heroes...

[playa1]

I like the 24 space start zone and find it useful for most armies; however, I would have no problem if it was raised to 28 or even 32. This would allow for more double spaced figures. The 90 point double spaced Marrden Hounds virtually see no play simply because of start zone size (I believe). I think the Marro Hive also would be more tournament-useful in a larger start zone.

[MI_Tiger]

For tournaments, restricted start zones adds a level of strategy to army design. It would be easy to just add squads of Ashigaru until you run out of points, but its more challenging to deal with a limited number of allowed spaces/units. Do I leave off a squad of zombies to fit in Cyprien? It makes army design a game in itself, which I find fun. Though it is very frustrating with double-spaced figures - that Marrden Hound army does seem to fill up the start zone quickly.

More importantly, limited start zones ensures that tournament games can be completed in a reasonable amount of time. Strict limits encourage the use of high-point value heroes; this tends to make games shorter. A turn with a hero will be faster since you only have to decide where to move one figure (and sometimes only decide on one attack). And if a large portion of your army's points are in one figure, losing that single figure can bring the end of the game a lot closer quickly.

So I think limited start zones are important for tournaments. In casual games, everyone should feel free to throw all limits out the window. Play 120 Ashigaru versus 85 Zombies and enjoy a loooooooooong night of Heroscaping.

[rdhight]

I agree. Many of the 500-or-so-point armies that would take up more than 24 hexes are fine combinations that I think players should have an opportunity to use at events without taking a penalty. Blasts x3/glads x4 is a reasonable request. Kato and double Ashigaru x3 is a reasonable request. Marrdens x2, MarCav x2, and MBS is a reasonable request. So is the Marrdens/'stalkers army you mention. It's not too much to ask.

But along with an increase in starting zone size, I think increased game times also have to go on the table. If the 50-minute game (or whatever) is god, every hex past 24 is going to be like pulling teeth.

[robbdaman]

I have wondered why they really feel it is necessary to use a specified 24 hex start area, would it really ruin the game to allow more? I mean yes the largest piece of terrain is the 24 hex so I can see why they would specify it but it as others have said if they up it to 30 there wouldn't be a big difference overall. Perhaps switch it to four 7 hex pieces for a start area. My biggest guess for the limit is that there is only so much terrain to go around. It limits the need for more as larger start areas would. Still that is probably a very minor issue.

R~

[Taeblewalker]

With just the RotV master set and the terrain that comes in a few boosters, it would be easy to add 6 start zone spaces to the edge of each start zone. They may be snow, unless you have the earlier waves, but so be it. Wave 1 in particular had a lot of terrain. Six or eight expansion packs is not uncommon even on a relatively tight budget, so you can add six start zone spaces to each of four start zones with even one master set and not overcrowd the board proper.

[NecroBlade]

A biased binary poll. Awesome.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by robbdaman

I have wondered why they really feel it is necessary to use a specified 24 hex start area, would it really ruin the game to allow more? I mean yes the largest piece of terrain is the 24 hex so I can see why they would specify it but it as others have said if they up it to 30 there wouldn't be a big difference overall. Perhaps switch it to four 7 hex pieces for a start area. My biggest guess for the limit is that there is only so much terrain to go around. It limits the need for more as larger start areas would. Still that is probably a very minor issue.

R~

I'll answer this since I am a big reason we have a standard.

1- I have spent the past 4 years running events and gathering data. 24 hexes was not arrived at arbitrarily, but through observation and experimentation.

2- When setting up events it is necessary to build numerous maps. When all the maps have odd shaped start zones, it takes a lot of time to demark those zones. It also takes a lot of stickers or whatever folks use. Simply having the start zone be a 24 hex space knocks a BUNCH of time off of setting up.

3- During play, it has been observed through extensive trials that 24 spaces yeilds a high number of games that finish on time. Remember that part above where I was concerned with time?

4- Between each round of the tourney, players find their way to the naxrt map, meet their opponent, ands start putting their figures on the battlefield. Back in the old days, we had pdf printouts or marked start zone areas. We found that often the materials used to mark start zones would get sluffed off or worse would actually ruin the terrain pieces. The PDF files slowed things way down as players were constantly having to refer to it and pass it back and forth.... Nowadays with maps that utilize the 24 hex piece as a start zone, it is a snap to set up.

5- When cleaning up after an event, it takes quite a while to peel stickers off of terrain. Something that is totally cured by the use of maps that have a 24 hex piece designed as a start zone.

Remember that the old stndard used to be 400 point armies and 19-22 space start zones. The new stanard of 500 points(suggested by the designers) and 24 spaces start zones (arrived at through trial and error) seems to work quite smoothly and is in fact faster than the old standard due to all of the things I've mentioned above.

[Taeblewalker]

GB,

Those are all great points, but it seems that the designers are implying armies more in the 600 point range with the newer units (Kato, for example, Zombies, and others I mentioned in the first post). I respectfully submit that adding six extra hexes to the edge of a map, on the outer edge of the 24hex main start zone, would not be too confusing or time-intensive.

I have never even imagined using, let alone used, stickers to denote start zones, though I have bordered start zones by dice, so I can see your point about clarity when a 24-hexer is not used, although I say again that adding a few hexes around the edges of those 24-hexers is not too difficult or confusing. I have never run a tournament, however.