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  #13  
Old July 24th, 2015, 08:56 PM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

That is probably true, but us Heroscapers have never been much to stick to rules that we decide are bad :P (Not saying they are bad yet because I don't have a copy to judge, just sayin they have the potential to be)
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  #14  
Old July 25th, 2015, 07:15 AM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

I know almost nothing about MTG and haven't gotten my Planeswalker Arena game yet. But I'm going to try and combine the two as Scape, so I'm jumping in as much as I can.

1. I had suggested to Quozl on bgg that we be able to mix two colors of cards initially per Planeswalker, just to get to the deck building aspect before expansions come out, since they will take a while. He seemed to think that would be interesting to try. Deck building was never my thing, but it can be fun, if you don't have to keep buying an infinite amount of cards (LCG instead of CCG).

2. Quozl, when you say a PW doesn't need an order marker, do you mean that each player can take one AotP turn each HS turn without one?

3. People seem to feel so far that the spell cards can be costed seperately and added or not to the Planeswalker's basic cost.
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  #15  
Old July 25th, 2015, 09:08 AM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

#2. There are no order markers at all in AotP. You just choose an army card and take a turn with it. That also means there are no rounds. You roll initiative once at the start of the game and then just alternate turns for the rest of the game. I would suggest that to replicate this in normal scape, you use something like this for each planeswalker (untested by me):

Quote:
PLANESWALKER ORDER MARKER CONTROL
When revealing an Order Marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with this planeswalker, you may move the just revealed order marker to any army card you control and take a turn with it as if you had revealed the order marker on that card.
#3 - I feel that the spell deck points (200) are included in the planeswalker point costs so if you wanted to add the black spell deck to Cyprien, for example, I would add 200 points to the army cost. Or, conversely, if you wanted to use Gideon without his spell deck, subtract 200 points from his point cost.

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  #16  
Old July 25th, 2015, 01:58 PM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
I feel that the spell deck points (200) are included in the planeswalker point costs so if you wanted to add the black spell deck to Cyprien, for example, I would add 200 points to the army cost. Or, conversely, if you wanted to use Gideon without his spell deck, subtract 200 points from his point cost.
That feels about right to me from a theory-walker perspective.

~Aldin, loving the idea of using HS heroes as alternative Planeswalkers

He either fears his fate too much
or his desserts are small
That dares not put it to the touch
to gain or lose it all
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  #17  
Old August 12th, 2015, 11:12 PM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

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Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
I feel that the spell deck points (200) are included in the planeswalker point costs so if you wanted to add the black spell deck to Cyprien, for example, I would add 200 points to the army cost. Or, conversely, if you wanted to use Gideon without his spell deck, subtract 200 points from his point cost.
That feels about right to me from a theory-walker perspective.

~Aldin, loving the idea of using HS heroes as alternative Planeswalkers
This is correct. Outside of a few broken abilities in AotP (looking at you, Gideon, and your Avatar of Justice + Counter Strike...) tossing the deck and dropping 200 points makes them pretty balanced.
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  #18  
Old August 28th, 2015, 06:30 AM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

Since actually playing the game, I've been wondering why AotP lets your PW summon two units, instead of only one. It certainly gets your army on the board faster for a 10 year old's pleasure, but I often find delaying all of some of the summoning a turn or two can be useful to start your guys further up the field.

Letting your PW only summon one at a time might balance them better in a mixed Scape/Arema game; some complained early on bgg that summoning makes them too strong vs Scape. I'll probably leave it alone at start when I first blend the games (see my thread on that).

Any thoughts on this?
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  #19  
Old August 28th, 2015, 12:07 PM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas View Post
Since actually playing the game, I've been wondering why AotP lets your PW summon two units, instead of only one. It certainly gets your army on the board faster for a 10 year old's pleasure, but I often find delaying all of some of the summoning a turn or two can be useful to start your guys further up the field.

Letting your PW only summon one at a time might balance them better in a mixed Scape/Arema game; some complained early on bgg that summoning makes them too strong vs Scape. I'll probably leave it alone at start when I first blend the games (see my thread on that).

Any thoughts on this?
I think its to balance the fact than once your Planeswalker dies, any unsummoned units or spells in hand/deck are now worthless.

For example, I played a game where Jace summoned only the Leyline Phantoms. The following turn I killed Jace (like, turn 3), leaving just the Phantoms, and my entire un-wounded army left. They all died turn 4.
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  #20  
Old August 31st, 2015, 12:14 PM
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Re: Fair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
3 spells per turn, General.

Dysole, I know Magic and this game is not Magic. It could totally be just Magic flavor added to a point system that does not care if you mix colors.
Okay it was unclear from the way you phrased it. It feels most intuitive to me to be unable to mix colors without the given Planeswalker and most akin to Magic. Rolando and you seem to feel otherwise. If I had to guess, I'd think WotC will not endorse color mixing without a planeswalker who lets you.

~Dysole, speculatively
Agreed. The rulebook also seems to back up your speculation.

Essentially, you can cast spells and summon creatures that match the color of the planeswalker.
In the case of the new Kiora planeswalker from Battle of Zendikar expansion, it is Blue and Green. Allowing you to build a spell deck and summon creatures from either of those colors.

That said, when mixing heroscape into this, I think it just takes a bit of knowlegde of both games to come to a reasonable assertion as to what belongs where. I dont think you can simply say that Ullar belongs to green, for instance.

Anubian wolves are utgar, and would assume utgar is under the auspice of black, but these could easily be under the auspice of green or green and black.

I think it's best to look at each squad on a case by case basis.

Though Samurai definitely look like they belong under white. An instant kamigawa expansion for Arena.
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  #21  
Old August 31st, 2015, 08:41 PM
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Re: Fair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorcrayons View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl View Post
3 spells per turn, General.

Dysole, I know Magic and this game is not Magic. It could totally be just Magic flavor added to a point system that does not care if you mix colors.
Okay it was unclear from the way you phrased it. It feels most intuitive to me to be unable to mix colors without the given Planeswalker and most akin to Magic. Rolando and you seem to feel otherwise. If I had to guess, I'd think WotC will not endorse color mixing without a planeswalker who lets you.

~Dysole, speculatively
Agreed. The rulebook also seems to back up your speculation.

Essentially, you can cast spells and summon creatures that match the color of the planeswalker.
In the case of the new Kiora planeswalker from Battle of Zendikar expansion, it is Blue and Green. Allowing you to build a spell deck and summon creatures from either of those colors.

That said, when mixing heroscape into this, I think it just takes a bit of knowlegde of both games to come to a reasonable assertion as to what belongs where. I dont think you can simply say that Ullar belongs to green, for instance.

Anubian wolves are utgar, and would assume utgar is under the auspice of black, but these could easily be under the auspice of green or green and black.


I think it's best to look at each squad on a case by case basis.

Though Samurai definitely look like they belong under white. An instant kamigawa expansion for Arena.
You are 100% correct. In Scape, Utgar and Valkrill are villains, and no one else is. In Magic, evil can be any color, as color doesn't represent "sides," rather Magic colors represent personalities and ideals. You can have black heroes and white villains. And Nubian Wolves would be either green or red (like the most recent werewolves in Magic).
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  #22  
Old August 31st, 2015, 08:56 PM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

Well, before Innistrad, they were all black. All 3 of them.

I only threw in the green because lycanthropy can be seen as a natural mutation, rather than a vile evil curse. So green could conceivably and rationally use it too.

I think red is a stretch overall, but for the Innistrad setting, where everyday is halloween and every hour is midnight, I am shocked everyone/everything/everycolor isnt a werewolf or a vampire.
They should have just called the set Ravenloft and been honest about it.

They'll stop wearing all black when someone makes a darker color, I'm sure.
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  #23  
Old September 1st, 2015, 08:30 AM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

I wonder how much of the AotP squads are balanced knowing they will be drafted, and may never see the light of day. For example 3 squads of Aubrien Archers would cost 210 points, where as 3x3 life Rangers cost 80.

However looking deeper we see the difference.

Aubriens: 210 points for 9 lives.
- Average out to get a 4th figure to attack and move every turn with frenzy.
- All start on the board and you can start moving and attacking immediately, and they will still be there when your planes walker falls (if you even have one).
- Can only take one wound per attack (extra skulls are wasted)
- Cannot be boosted by spells.
- Multiple figures (more than 3) that allow for more board control.
- Moderate elf synergy in heroscape

Rangers: 80 points for 9 lives.
- Can be boosted by spell cards
- Requires investiment in a planeswalker (300+ investment)
- Extra skulls can remove more than one life per attack.
- only 3 figures (limited board control)
- Must be summoned before the fall of thier planeswalker.
- Can move after attacking.
- Can be summoned to a ideal location, but need to wait a turn before activating.

So the question is if 500 point of Green Planeswalker can beat 490 points of Archers (21 figures).

Also we can assume this battle is taking place on a heroscape map with significantly more oppertunities for gaining height, which really helps out the archers.

This reminds me of the thought experiment of All of Marvel figures vs Vipers, Sooooo many vipers. That debate was never settled either.

After looking it over, I'm not instantly sure of who would win, which is a good sign.


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  #24  
Old September 1st, 2015, 09:14 AM
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Re: How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

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Originally Posted by Colorcrayons View Post
I think red is a stretch overall, but for the Innistrad setting, where everyday is halloween and every hour is midnight, I am shocked everyone/everything/everycolor isnt a werewolf or a vampire.
They should have just called the set Ravenloft and been honest about it.
Red isn't a stretch at all. Red captures the fury and rage of werewolves. And WotC is pretty open with what they base Magics blocks off of. People had been asking for a gothic horror block and a Greek mythology block for years. We got Innistrad and Theros, which were a different take on those.
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