The Book of Beyonder

[IAmBatman]

Should 3 army tests pretty much be our standard for Event Heroes?

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Should 3 army tests pretty much be our standard for Event Heroes?

It should be the minimum IMO.

[Griffin]

I agree. 3 Army Tests from 3 hand picked playtesters.

[IAmBatman]

So, I think this is probably ready for an initial, if GO agrees. I'm on Doctor Fate for the next few days, though.

[Griffin]

I will see about running some tests tomorrow night.

[IAmBatman]

Sweet. You da man.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Sweet. You da man.

Yes, you be. Da Man, that is.

[GreyOwl]

Sounds good to me!

[IAmBatman]

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT (BEYONDER)

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS Event Hero rules prevent you from taking control of an opponent's Event Hero, so no mind control loops possible here.

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS Though if he's hitting the Mere Pawns rolls, he's very scary ...

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
PASS

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS He felt very like Beyonder

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS The changes to Mere Pawns let the opposing army get plenty of attacks in on him and feel like they had some control over their own destiny! Plus it's fun to have Doom steal Beyonder's powers!

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS

_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass? PASS @ 1800
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder vs. Anti-Monitor (Normally I wouldn't use Anti-Monitor in a playtest, but since I'm doing three others, and since I feel Anti-Monitor is his closest comparison for points, I thought a head-to-head could be a helpful start).

Spoiler Alert!

Beyonder's extra five life and ability to constantly be in melee with height advantage gave him the edge here, though Anti-Monitor's extra turn every round and sometimes two made it really close. With no D20 auto destroy power like Anti-Monitor, and no real answer to squads like Anti-Monitor, I'm not sure Beyonder is worth much more than Anti-Monitor.
Beyonder did have the edge one-on-one, though, but it broke down to his life advantage. Beyonder won with 5 life remaining on Turn 2 of Round 4, meaning that if his life were dropped by 5, he'd likely be priced at 1600 as well. So, with the 5 extra life, I'm going to start Beyonder at 1800 and go from there.

_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass? PASS
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder (1800) vs. Thor, Silver Surfer, Doctor Doom, Doombot x1, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and Red Skull (1810)

Spoiler Alert!

Beyonder won after 9 Full Rounds with 28 of 35 wounds on his card. On the surface that doesn't sound so bad, and it seems as if he just needs a bump in cost a few hundred points ... but there's more to it than that. Silver Surfer and Doombot died in Round 1. Red Skull and Iron Man died in Round 2. Doctor Doom died in Round 4. Spidey and Thor lasted until the end. Basically all Beyonder did until he was up against the last two (and after taking about 20 wounds realized he was better off attacking Thor himself) was sit back and roll the D20 and keep the heroes in their start zone attacking each other. He only failed often enough on the rolls for Thor to attack him twice, once from melee, once from range, and put one wound on him, until it was down to just Spidey and Thor. It was actually a huge advantage for the heroes to have fewer troops against Beyonder - it didn't feel even a little competitive until most of the other army had killed each other off and Beyonder finally let what was left face him directly. I love the theme on that, but it sucks to play against. Here's my suggestion - we tweak the D20 rolls up slightly and put an effective range on the mind control. It just sucks to be forced to rip apart your own start zone and then every time you move six spaces out of it, be sent six spaces back into it to attack your own guys. I think we could make the second tier of the D20 roll 14+ and limit him to taking control of units within 10 clear sight spaces of himself. Beyond will still get plenty of chances to pit heroes against each other and all that awesome Secret Wars theme will still be there, but you should at least get a chance to attack him back.
Then, to keep his cost high, where it should be, I'd say bump his life to 40 and his move to 5.

Re-test:

Beyonder (2000) vs. Thor, Silver Surfer, Doctor Doom, Doombot x1, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Cyclops and Red Skull (2000)

Beyonder won with 33 wounds in a much more satisfying match after 10 Full Rounds. This time Beyonder definitely had to get up close and personal for the first half of the game until he could make it into the enemy start zone for the second half, when he started using them as Mere Pawns more consistently. He summoned Red Skull early, putting Red Skull down in Round 2. Then he faced Thor, who put over 10 wounds on him (3 thanks to a successful God of Thunderstrike roll), and put Thor down by the end of Round 3. Doombot got killed by friendly fire from Cyclops and Silver Surfer in Round 5. Silver Surfer was killed in Round 7. Doom, who Beyonder could not control, but who took Beyonder's powers three times and used them to pull his own Red Skull number, was killed by both Beyonder and Doom's mind controlled allies in Round 8. Cyclops was killed in Round 9. Iron Man and Spider-man were killed in Round 10. Their defenses fell apart too easily for this one to end.
Decision time. I think if Beyonder, in the current write up, had life of 35, he'd be perfectly balanced at 2000 points. I'm OK with that, and I'm also OK with him costing more than 2000 points if that's what we want. So basically we need to decide if I should test him with 40 life at 2000+ or stay at 2000 and go down to 35 life.

_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder, Riddler, Speedy, Sentinel (x3) (3000) vs. Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Professor X, Jean Grey, Magma, Wolverine, Pyro, Blob, Mystique, Colossus, Angel, Beast, Molly Hayes, and Cyclops (3000)

Spoiler Alert!

Beyonder wins on Turn 1 of Round 17 with only 23 of 40 wounds on his card. I think the design is good but, especially when he has allies with him, he needs to go well over 2300 still. I'm going to try him at 2500 in the next test and see how it goes. Beyonder summoned Professor X, who'd lost all of his Order Marker to Riddler in the first round and killed Professor X in a single attack. It was all uphill for the X-Men after that. Quicksilver killed Riddler in Round 2, then Quicksilver got killed by Speedy and Sentinels in Round 3. The first Sentinel died in Round 5, Pyro, Angel, and Speedy (to AIDS) died in Round 6, and Cyclops, Jean Grey, and the second Sentinel died in Round 7. At this point Beyonder only had one wound. The third Sentinel died in Round 8. Molly Hayes died in Round 9 (Beyonder was finally in the mix of it now). Blob was killed by molten lava in Round 10, and Magneto was killed by his allies in Round 10 as well (so much for an attempt to toss Beyonder in lava!). Beast was killed in Round 13 after putting a number of wounds on Beyonder with his normal attack. Colossus (after many failed Fastball Special rolls) and Mystique (after a single failed Engagement Attack roll) both died in Round 14. It was a lost cause after Colossus died (mostly to special attacks from Magma). Scarlet Witch died in Round 16, her Chaos Magic Curse somewhat helpful, but not enough. Magma died in Round 17, unable to keep lava under her consistently enough to get off many special attacks against Beyonder first. I am getting concerned about his power level against mid-level heroes. The more heroes the other team adds to the mix, the more potential "Pawns" there are for Beyonder, which really works against them in a way. I'm not sure we can pull off the 40 life/over 2000 points without tweaking his Mere Pawns power. I'm going to try him against some squads and then against a Hero army specifically tailored towards beating him and see if it changes my mind.

_____________________________________________________________

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder (3000) vs. Graviton, MODOK, Loki, Annihilus, Red Skull, HYDRA Agents x3, Punisher, Thanos, Super-Skrull, and Madame HYDRA (3000)

Spoiler Alert!

I wanted to test Beyonder's upper limits and see what it'd take to kill him and I found out! The villains won on Turn 1 of Round 14 with 1 Life MODOK, 3 Life Super-Skrull, 5 Life Thanos, and full Life Graviton and Loki remaining. A group of heavy hitters and a lot of missed Mere Pawns rolls were what it took to end this one. The HYDRA Agents, Punisher, Madame HYDRA, and Red Skull were pretty much fodder here. Thanos (who was rarely attacked and never killed), Loki, and Annihilus (plus the CCR) did most of the damage here, with Graviton's throw finishing things off. The villains did a good job of hiding, very much limiting Beyonder's use of Mere Pawns in this one.

So far I'm confident that Beyonder is worth somewhere between 2300-2600. I'm not sure I can narrow him down past that though ... I really think that the perspectives of more playtesters are needed here. Right now, I'd probably go with 2500, as I think the higher a cost needed in the startzone per space, the better a chance opponents have against him. He will likely tear up a mid-level hero heavy army.

[IAmBatman]

OK, I updated Beyonder with his first two tests. I'm done for tonight, but please pay special attention to the second test and let me know what you think of the proposed tweaks!
I will say, he feels very thematically spot on, he just needs a couple of changes to be more fun to play against!

[whitestuff]

Doesn't sound like a fun battle... Sounds frustrating in fact. Hopefully the tweaks will help with that...

[IAmBatman]

Yeah. There were lots of castle pillars on the map I was on, so even if I'd just been able to avoid being controlled when I wasn't in clear sight of Beyonder that would've made tons of difference! On a flat map, though, it wouldn't help, so I think a range of 10 spaces at maximum is needed so even if you turn me on my brethren, I can at least try to make you pay for it on the following turn!
Also having a slightly higher chance for him to miss the roll would be nice. Controlling 2 enemy figures is huge.