Improved heat of battle rules

[Rÿchean]

Adding the rule that you cannot place adjacent to your opponent sort of tones down the out carding mentality. That was prevalent because it allowed you to force engagement on figures that the opponent may not have wanted to be engaged. Since the change would not allow for engagement anyway, the out carding strategy is diminished.(a good thing IMO)

I have played with the unengaged format and it does make range significantly more playable than it was. However, it also adds an incredible amount of thought and planning to the unit placement phase, much more than existed before.

If you see your opponent try to set up a pod, you have to try to counter it. Obviously if a player does a 4 point with reavers, there is nothing you can do to prevent Raelin from being placed in the middle. You can still position so your figures have a chance to engage her or threaten her.

It does make seal off/range strategies easier to pull off, but the bottom line is that most all figures will still be one hex away from engagement. It still gives melee a boost but it does shift it from being all about melee into being more about having a balanced army.

[Onacara]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Adding the rule that you cannot place adjacent to your opponent sort of tones down the out carding mentality. That was prevalent because it allowed you to force engagement on figures that the opponent may not have wanted to be engaged. Since the change would not allow for engagement anyway, the out carding strategy is diminished.(a good thing IMO)

I have played with the unengaged format and it does make range significantly more playable than it was. However, it also adds an incredible amount of thought and planning to the unit placement phase, much more than existed before.

If you see your opponent try to set up a pod, you have to try to counter it. Obviously if a player does a 4 point with reavers, there is nothing you can do to prevent Raelin from being placed in the middle. You can still position so your figures have a chance to engage her or threaten her.

It does make seal off/range strategies easier to pull off, but the bottom line is that most all figures will still be one hex away from engagement. It still gives melee a boost but it does shift it from being all about melee into being more about having a balanced army.

Doesn't it also add to the time for placing the armies, since there is "more thinking" and fewer places for them to go?

Will that also be addressed in the rework of it for GenCon?

[dok]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

The original flavor behind Heat of Battle as specified in UPC's variant was that the fog lifted and you realized your forces were closer to the enemy than you had anticipated. Your changes still support that flavor.

From the rules list you posted: For item 1, the player winning the d20 roll already had that choice, so that isn't a change. It might be a change from what UPC originally had in his variant but it isn't a change from the way HoB GenCon 2009 was run. The only change to Heat of Battle for GenCon 2010 is consistent with your bullet point 2b.

This change was imminent, not just because of FEs, but because the builds were getting pretty stale. 7xWOA or whatevers make for some BORING and long game play. The event needed a shake up.

That all sounds awesome, Rÿchean. I do agree that this is a good change.

I had always thought of "Heat of the Battle" as reflecting a battle that we were taking command of that was already raging (in the heat of the battle, as it were). Like you say, this theme is really preserved either way.

So, the only big difference between these rules and the ones that are actually going to be used appears to be the "place a squad together" rule.

[Grim]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

Adding the rule that you cannot place adjacent to your opponent sort of tones down the out carding mentality. That was prevalent because it allowed you to force engagement on figures that the opponent may not have wanted to be engaged. Since the change would not allow for engagement anyway, the out carding strategy is diminished.(a good thing IMO)

Excellent. And the out-carding strategy was perhaps about to become ridiculous, with the Fire Elemental and the other new, cheap common heroes.

(speaking of which, I bet some Chainfighters and Air Elementals show up at HoB this year...)

[Rÿchean]

First off, my apologies to lafleurhero.

It was not my intent to hi-jack your thread from being about the HoB event in general to it being about the HoB event at GenCon 2010. I had planned on having these types of question and answer things in a thread dedicated to the GenCon events. When I saw that your suggested change was similar to what we already had working, I wanted to join the discussion. I didn't want the new rules for HoB GenCon to come out and you to think we stole your idea or something. I have been working on this change with Jexik, Lonewolf, Rym, & Dignan for quite a while now.

Originally Posted by Onacara

Doesn't it also add to the time for placing the armies, since there is "more thinking" and fewer places for them to go?

Will that also be addressed in the rework of it for GenCon?

The hope is that players run a few test games themselves so they have a better feel for it so it doesn't overly lengthen the placement process. Also, we are running the events ourselves this year which should help keep the events more on time thus maximizing the actual play time. In addition, the point total will be diminished from year's past. Lastly, we moved the event to a 3pm start, so that it is the last event of the day, which gives us more flexibility in terms of time.

Originally Posted by dok

So, the only big difference between these rules and the ones that are actually going to be used appears to be the "place a squad together" rule.

Correct, we are not using 2a of lafleurhero's proposal for HoB GenCon 2010

Again, lafleurhero, my apologies for utilizing your thread in this manner.

[clancampbell]

Its a neat variant of the current HOB rules, but I don't have a problem with the current HOB rules.

It does seem a bit confrontational, as others have pointed out. You seem to dislike the current rules, thats fine, your intittled to your opinion, but I wouldn't say your way is better, just different.

You point to Marrden Hounds as an example of why the current rules don't work. I ran an HOB event. Out of 20 players only 1 brought hounds, 1! That person did not win either. I can see where they are good, but not dominant.

[Cyborgs Gaming]

Discussing the gencon event is not hijacking the thread. Gencon is the 2nd largest HS event for the year and the way HOB is played there pretty much establishes it as the standard. I did expect confrontation about the rules in general but I did not expect such a response about my "tone of voice" when posting. In a way I meant to be a bit humorous about it like the part about Matthias. Anyway when a post is made in a forum like this your only getting about 10% of normal communication. The tones are missing, body language, facial expressions. All those things that are as much a part of conversation as the words themselves. Also you don't have to spell correction when speaking.

I guess the 2b rule is the most important and takes care of some of the imbalance with heroes vs squads. However there has been a problem for some time about Heroscape being commonsquadscape and 2a does help that. I think it would not hurt to try it and see if it does in fact still help enough to be warrented.

I sorta like the idea of whoever has the least points on the board is the one who places next. Next time I play I'm going to have to try that out. I can see a possible exploit of it, a player could effectivly place several very low point squads in a row without a counter placment having a chance to take place, but it's worth trying. Then again it's the same thing if you have many cards and place all yours at the end so it's probably not a real problem

[dok]

Originally Posted by lafleurhero

I sorta like the idea of whoever has the least points on the board is the one who places next. Next time I play I'm going to have to try that out. I can see a possible exploit of it, a player could effectivly place several very low point squads in a row without a counter placment having a chance to take place, but it's worth trying. Then again it's the same thing if you have many cards and place all yours at the end so it's probably not a real problem

You could meld the two rules, and say, "if you have more points on the board than your opponent, you may pass in stead of placing a card". This takes the "out-carding" strategy off the table, more or less, but doesn't allow an army with a ton of cheap squads to steal all the good spots on the map, either.

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by lafleurhero

Gencon is the 2nd largest HS event for the year and the way HOB is played there pretty much establishes it as the standard.

I will concede that this is true. I sort of wish it wasn't though. I have tried to downplay and deflect the amount of importance that is placed on the GenCon events but to no avail. Just because we do it this way or that way doesn't mean it is the right way or the best way. It is just our way. Full card scoring is a good example of something we use at GenCon that the majority of events do not use. I wish more players/posters/event organizers viewed the GenCon events as just an example of how some Scape events can be run rather than viewing them as the standard.

We (grungebob that is) started it is a way to promote heroscape. It inadvertently evolved into the animal it has become.

[rym]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

If you see your opponent try to set up a pod, you have to try to counter it. Obviously if a player does a 4 point with reavers, there is nothing you can do to prevent Raelin from being placed in the middle. You can still position so your figures have a chance to engage her or threaten her.

Can you say Drow Chainfighter, anyone?

I've played, er, playtested, this variant of HoB with Rÿchean, and after some initial misgivings about the format, found it to be incredibly fun, and it led to some well-thought out initial placement strategy. I was a little apprehensive with the changes, and having enough board room (we had plenty), but found it to be enjoyable and below are several points of note.

1) If you initially place your figure next to a glyph, and you take the highest ground available to do so, your opponent either (a) cannot claim that same glyph (due to map layout), or (b) most likely, will be at a height disadvantage on the other side of the glyph. Either way, good for you.

2) If there are 2 or 3 single hex pieces placed on the board as the highest points of elevation (or even 2- or 3-hexers, for that matter), and you claim those first, you've got height advantage from the get-go, and no one can engage you at all, at least until the game itself has begun.

3) Drow Chainfighters are great for disrupting the Raelin pod and pulling other figures off of perches or glyphs. Cannot stress it enough, if you've got 50 points left in your build, add a couple of these guys.

Rÿchean placed his Raelin is such a way that I had to either (a) kill off all the Blade Gruts protecting her (most of which were defensively enhanced by Raelin, height, Nerak, and even Tornak upon occasion), or (b) take the long-a$$ way around to get to Raelin from behind. Either way, it was unpromising. Upon initial placement, I made sure I was able to get at least one of the Drow Chainfighters within 3 clear sight spaces of her, and voila! Come to papa! (Which the Zombies loved by the way ).

These aren't earth-shattering new revelations or anything, but rather, things to consider when you play this variant and set up your figures. Sometimes it's a 'Duh!' moment, but it doesn't hurt to be reminded of them from time to time, either.

When it's all said and done, I've played both HoB formats, and I find this newest variant (Gencon 2010) to be quite enjoyable. I like that it forces me to actually "think" about what I'm doing, rather than plopping my guys down on the board, willy-nilly.

My two cents.

[lefton4ya]

One more suggested rule: You cannot place figures on the highest level.

This would not work on flat maps, but would really help on maps where there is only a couple of highest points that because of the adjacency rule, whoever gets the highest D20 roll gets height and no one else can. Alternatives to compensate for this is that you can start a couple figures engaged or you can be engaged on the highest level only, but I think the suggestion above would work great on 90% of maps.

[Onacara]

What if thee was a way to make HoB a hybrid?

Meaning you place 1/2 of your units in the battlefield and the balance in the start zone.

Kind of like the guys in the start zone just showed up in the middle of the fight.