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  #301  
Old October 21st, 2018, 01:39 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

I was picking up some 20th Massachusetts Line figures from amazon and I noticed these Monk/Friar figures from the same company. I thought it'd be fun to see what I could do with them.


Heroscape lacks healing figures for whatever reason: Kelda and Ana Karithon are the only ones! (Edit: thanks to Astroking112 for pointing out Rhogar Dragonspine & Sonlen are also both healers.) I thought it would be neat to see a squad of healing figures. Since these guys are missionaries and not fighters, they have a very low attack value. To make up for that, when they are killed they have a chance at wounding their attacker. I picture the Franciscan Friars being used as a screen for a hero-heavy army, such as the C3V Monks.


Saint Medicus uses the last figure in the pack. I originally had Monk Supremacy on his card, but I felt like Teaching of the Healing Arts was more creative and allowed interesting combos with the other healing figures. Both cards have great synergy with C3V's Master Lao Xin as well as Master Woo. As Devout figures, Count Raymond gives them a boost too.

Last edited by Arch-vile; October 22nd, 2018 at 12:22 AM.
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  #302  
Old October 21st, 2018, 02:06 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
I was picking up some 20th Massachusetts Line figures from amazon and I noticed these Monk/Friar figures from the same company. I thought it'd be fun to see what I could do with them.


Heroscape lacks healing figures for whatever reason: Kelda and Ana Karithon are the only ones! I thought it would be neat to see a squad of healing figures. Since these guys are missionaries and not fighters, they have a very low attack value. To make up for that, when they are killed they have a chance at wounding their attacker. I picture the Franciscan Friars being used as a screen for a hero-heavy army, such as the C3V Monks.
I think that the reason HeroScape has so few healing figures is because of the nature of using dice to attack. When dealing wounds can feel impossible at times (either due to poor rolls or characters like Q9), erasing a player's progress can feel really bad. I think that may be one of the primary reason why we only saw one fully dedicated healing figure, with the rest having other functions as well like Sonlen, Rhogar, or Ana.

That said, I actually really like the theme of these guys. Their cheapness is a major concern (especially if they get to roll for every wounded hero you control, instead of just ones that are adjacent to at least one Franciscan Friar that you control), though, since healing is so valuable in HeroScape. I would personally suggest changing Pray for Healing 17 to only affect wounded heroes that you control adjacent to at least one Franciscan Friar that you control to avoid this problem and encourage these guys to see more play.

The only other qualm that I have with this design is that Divine Retribution can trigger on Leaving Engagement Attacks. I don't really like the idea of these guys shuffling back and forth a couple of feet, prompting Major Q9 to whack at them to hopefully smite him. I think that the theme would be stronger if they could not directly prompt the automatic wound. Other than those two things, I really like this design!

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Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post

Saint Medicus uses the last figure in the pack. I originally had Monk Supremacy on his card, but I felt like Teaching of the Healing Arts was more creative and allowed interesting combos with the other healing figures. Both cards have great synergy with C3V's Master Lao Xin as well as Master Woo. As Devout figures, Count Raymond gives them a boost too.
It feels really weird to have a normal move on a character that is visibly sitting down. HeroScape doesn't really have a precedence for this, but I would imagine that this mini shouldn't have a move higher than 3 since it conveys immobility so much (even if logically the character could pick up the stool, it still feels odd on the miniature and Count Raymond can already boost the movement with his Devout Leadership).

I'm not a huge fan of the current implementation of Teacher of the Healing Arts, in all honesty. Maybe it's because I was just wrecked by Charos in the winning D/FW NHSD army, but I can't see it having much use outside of extremely high-life figures like him. Since the Monks double as a weaker screen for your heroes with Divine Retribution and being a cheap 4-figure squad, I'd expect players to be taking turns with them at least somewhat consistently to keep their heroes topped off and enemies engaged.

Monk Supremacy isn't exciting, either, but it does have some synergies with the other C3V monks. I do prefer the current Teacher of the Healing Arts over it just because we've seen Supremacy quite a bit by now and the extra synergy for Ana and Rhogar is neat, though.

As a more general suggestion, since the ratio of this figure to his squad is 1:1 in the pack that they come in (and the squad is fairly cheap, so they will likely be purchased in bulk), I would prefer to see either a Common or Uncommon Hero instead of a Unique one, but that's solely because I wouldn't want to end up with 3 extra copies of Saint Medicus.

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  #303  
Old October 21st, 2018, 02:25 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

Great concepts on these Arch. The only thing I'd be worried about is how cheap the monks are for what they get to do for all your heroes, combined with how they get a chance to wound figures for killing them. I'd keep them at 40pts if you made them Unique. That way the healing doesn't go on all game if the one player drafted 200 pts worth of them. They look like they'd do plenty fine at unique status as they are though.
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  #304  
Old October 21st, 2018, 02:51 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

Thanks for the comments guys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I think that the reason HeroScape has so few healing figures is because of the nature of using dice to attack. When dealing wounds can feel impossible at times (either due to poor rolls or characters like Q9), erasing a player's progress can feel really bad. I think that may be one of the primary reason why we only saw one fully dedicated healing figure, with the rest having other functions as well like Sonlen, Rhogar, or Ana.

That said, I actually really like the theme of these guys. Their cheapness is a major concern (especially if they get to roll for every wounded hero you control, instead of just ones that are adjacent to at least one Franciscan Friar that you control), though, since healing is so valuable in HeroScape. I would personally suggest changing Pray for Healing 17 to only affect wounded heroes that you control adjacent to at least one Franciscan Friar that you control to avoid this problem and encourage these guys to see more play.

The only other qualm that I have with this design is that Divine Retribution can trigger on Leaving Engagement Attacks. I don't really like the idea of these guys shuffling back and forth a couple of feet, prompting Major Q9 to whack at them to hopefully smite him. I think that the theme would be stronger if they could not directly prompt the automatic wound. Other than those two things, I really like this design!
Rhogar, I knew I forgot someone! Those are both smart suggestions for changes. I thought since disengagement attacks were optional, it wouldn't be an issue, but you're right that encouraging them is weird in itself.

I agree that healing wounds can be very discouraging as the opponent. The Feral Troll can be brutal against some figures. None of them now are very good as healers, except for Kelda. But even she is pretty bad outside of a casual environment. For the Friars, I thought a 17+ (up to a max of 11+) was rare enough to not be too overwhelming for opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
It feels really weird to have a normal move on a character that is visibly sitting down. HeroScape doesn't really have a precedence for this, but I would imagine that this mini shouldn't have a move higher than 3 since it conveys immobility so much (even if logically the character could pick up the stool, it still feels odd on the miniature and Count Raymond can already boost the movement with his Devout Leadership).

I'm not a huge fan of the current implementation of Teacher of the Healing Arts, in all honesty. Maybe it's because I was just wrecked by Charos in the winning D/FW NHSD army, but I can't see it having much use outside of extremely high-life figures like him. Since the Monks double as a weaker screen for your heroes with Divine Retribution and being a cheap 4-figure squad, I'd expect players to be taking turns with them at least somewhat consistently to keep their heroes topped off and enemies engaged.

Monk Supremacy isn't exciting, either, but it does have some synergies with the other C3V monks. I do prefer the current Teacher of the Healing Arts over it just because we've seen Supremacy quite a bit by now and the extra synergy for Ana and Rhogar is neat, though.

As a more general suggestion, since the ratio of this figure to his squad is 1:1 in the pack that they come in (and the squad is fairly cheap, so they will likely be purchased in bulk), I would prefer to see either a Common or Uncommon Hero instead of a Unique one, but that's solely because I wouldn't want to end up with 3 extra copies of Saint Medicus.
I think that a mini with a stool would never be used in official Heroscape. It's weird for the reasons you mentioned. I figured just ignoring the stool for gameplay reasons made the most sense. If these figures were ever used for a C3V/SoV design I agree that a common or uncommon would be necessary.

As far as gameplay is concerned, I figured the Monk heroes would get a good amount of use out of the healing since they could take simultaneous turns with Master Lao Xin's ability. Ranged heroes or higher life/higher defense heroes would definitely get more out of it, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Great concepts on these Arch. The only thing I'd be worried about is how cheap the monks are for what they get to do for all your heroes, combined with how they get a chance to wound figures for killing them. I'd keep them at 40pts if you made them Unique. That way the healing doesn't go on all game if the one player drafted 200 pts worth of them. They look like they'd do plenty fine at unique status as they are though.
I was originally thinking 50 points for a common squad, but I figured since they'll never attack anything and the healing/retribution odds were low, they'd be okay at 40. They can offer a lot for 40 though, so maybe it is slightly too much.
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  #305  
Old October 21st, 2018, 03:28 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
I agree that healing wounds can be very discouraging as the opponent. The Feral Troll can be brutal against some figures. None of them now are very good as healers, except for Kelda. But even she is pretty bad outside of a casual environment. For the Friars, I thought a 17+ (up to a max of 11+) was rare enough to not be too overwhelming for opponents.
My main concern is how you can currently roll for every wounded hero that you control. Especially in larger point games where you can afford to take some beefy heroes and these guys en masse, it could be overwhelming to opponents without some solid attackers. Limiting the roll only to figures adjacent to at least 1 Franciscan Friar would help with that potential at least somewhat, while still letting the power be pretty strong, especially with some hot dice and Saint Medicus.

As a quick aside, Saint Medicus might actually make Rhogar or Sonlen excellent healers. They both have other uses in an army, and Rhogar in particular suddenly has a 75% chance to remove 2 wounds. It's an interesting thought to see how he would make the other healers a lot more viable.

I agree with TREX's evaluation of their cost, although I do personally like the flexibility offered by making these guys common. Perhaps striking a balance at 45 points could be possible, although such slight details would really only come through in playtesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
I think that a mini with a stool would never be used in official Heroscape. It's weird for the reasons you mentioned. I figured just ignoring the stool for gameplay reasons made the most sense. If these figures were ever used for a C3V/SoV design I agree that a common or uncommon would be necessary.

As far as gameplay is concerned, I figured the Monk heroes would get a good amount of use out of the healing since they could take simultaneous turns with Master Lao Xin's ability. Ranged heroes or higher life/higher defense heroes would definitely get more out of it, though.
Yeah, the stool is a tricky problem for the sculpt. "Fixing" that inconsistency would require reworking the design, though, so I can see why you ignored it.

I'm not a huge fan of the monks, but if you ever did decide to pursue a SoV submission for these guys, I may have to start looking more heavily into them. They would definitely be the strongest option for these guys, given Master Lao Xin's Shifu and the usual abundance of heroes in those builds.

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  #306  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 12:18 AM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
My main concern is how you can currently roll for every wounded hero that you control. Especially in larger point games where you can afford to take some beefy heroes and these guys en masse, it could be overwhelming to opponents without some solid attackers. Limiting the roll only to figures adjacent to at least 1 Franciscan Friar would help with that potential at least somewhat, while still letting the power be pretty strong, especially with some hot dice and Saint Medicus.

As a quick aside, Saint Medicus might actually make Rhogar or Sonlen excellent healers. They both have other uses in an army, and Rhogar in particular suddenly has a 75% chance to remove 2 wounds. It's an interesting thought to see how he would make the other healers a lot more viable.

I agree with TREX's evaluation of their cost, although I do personally like the flexibility offered by making these guys common. Perhaps striking a balance at 45 points could be possible, although such slight details would really only come through in playtesting.
I forgot Sonlen too! So Heroscape has 4 healers. Both him and Rhogar get big boosts from Saint Medicus, but you do pay for it. That's a neat combo I didn't think of (mostly because I forgot both cards existed).

And I updated both cards with your suggested changes to Pray for Healing and 45 points. The previous version would have been a mess in giant games, when you could grab one squad of Friars and heal 30 heroes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'm not a huge fan of the monks, but if you ever did decide to pursue a SoV submission for these guys, I may have to start looking more heavily into them. They would definitely be the strongest option for these guys, given Master Lao Xin's Shifu and the usual abundance of heroes in those builds.
This was more of an exercise in design than anything else. I needed more Einar historical figures and these looked fun to think up a design for.
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  #307  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 03:14 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

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Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'm not a huge fan of the monks, but if you ever did decide to pursue a SoV submission for these guys, I may have to start looking more heavily into them. They would definitely be the strongest option for these guys, given Master Lao Xin's Shifu and the usual abundance of heroes in those builds.
This was more of an exercise in design than anything else. I needed more Einar historical figures and these looked fun to think up a design for.
It's definitely a fun concept, and I understand the desire to design for the sake of designing all too well. With the most recent changes, I really like where these guys have ended up!

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  #308  
Old October 22nd, 2018, 04:13 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'm not a huge fan of the monks, but if you ever did decide to pursue a SoV submission for these guys, I may have to start looking more heavily into them. They would definitely be the strongest option for these guys, given Master Lao Xin's Shifu and the usual abundance of heroes in those builds.
This was more of an exercise in design than anything else. I needed more Einar historical figures and these looked fun to think up a design for.
It's definitely a fun concept, and I understand the desire to design for the sake of designing all too well. With the most recent changes, I really like where these guys have ended up!
But who knew youd want to kill friar monks so badly after this to prevent their holy works. I cant help to think the one with the white beard looks like noah or moses from the bible.
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  #309  
Old October 23rd, 2018, 12:30 AM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

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Originally Posted by TREX View Post
But who knew youd want to kill friar monks so badly after this to prevent their holy works. I cant help to think the one with the white beard looks like noah or moses from the bible.
That's a fun idea. Moses could have a part the red sea power, and Jesus could have a renamed Slither & Rejected by Death.
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  #310  
Old October 23rd, 2018, 12:38 AM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

Lots of interesting custom ideas in the Bible: Cain (give him something for the Mark of Cain), Samson (maybe a power to bring down a whole castle on top of himself), David and/or Goliath (pretty self-explanatory).

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  #311  
Old October 24th, 2018, 12:57 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)



Here's my next crazy idea, copying any power in the game. There's a lot of powerful combos: Raelin's or Taelord's aura, any of the Dragon specials, Queglix Gun, Trample Stomp, Deadly Shot, Hydra Heads, bonding, etc. Maybe 120 is on the lower end for her, considering her potential.
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  #312  
Old October 24th, 2018, 01:25 PM
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Re: Arch-vile's customs (updated Oct. 2018)

I really like that; fun idea!

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