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  #553  
Old October 14th, 2018, 04:23 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I'm looking for more feedback on a design that I'd like to submit to the SoV fairly soon (it enters production near the end of this month, which is when availability would be the best). Here's the current design:



These are some specific things that I'm looking for more feedback on (although I do welcome thoughts on any part of the design):
  • How does the name sound? My knowledge of Japanese extends only to Google Translate, but this translates to "Terror" and "Demon," respectively.
  • Does the design match the miniature? I got feedback in my own thread noting that the sculpt seemed more like a mage than the card implied, so I'm curious if Arcane Protection adequately conveys the magical aspect. I have potential balance concerns about giving him a ranged attack, so I nodded to Sharwin Wildborn's Arcane Riposte instead.
  • Does the nod to Akumaken come across well? Aura of Terror is obviously inspired by his Mask of Terror (which makes sense to me because Akumaken's mask would be based off of demons such as this), so I'm curious as to how well the theme comes across and whether it stands enough on its own.
The miniature looks as if it is holding either an off color flame or my first thought was it was a soul or life force. A demon using souls is not a bad idea. I dont feel like the ranged counterstrike ability really works here. It doesnt really go to well.with the first ability. My first impression of a terrifying demon, even one in my army isnt really one that protects his comrades with the ranged counterstrike ability. I would stick with his first ability but make it enemy figures only. If he is on their team they shouldnt fear him hurting them. Give him counterstrike to keep the samurai theme. Id then incorporate the third ability into the model. Maybe have the souls of his fallen enemies protect him or use them to empower him somehow. Maybe an increase to defense.
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  #554  
Old October 14th, 2018, 05:22 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

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Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
I like the idea of a Demon samurai boosting the other samurai. I'd love to see the Samurai faction expanded. The name sounds fine to me. The link to Akumaken is cool. Does Arcane Protection work on special attacks? I feel like it should only work on normal attacks like Counter Strike & the Evil Eye powers. I also do think the fireball-magic-thing in his left hand means that this mini needs some sort of ranged attack or ranged special power.

Aura of Terror & Arcane Protection seem like two different design approaches. Aura of Terror requires that this guy is within 4 spaces of the enemy, so it's really only useful against melee opponents. Arcane Protection helps against range, and the adjacency requirement means that every Samurai except the Tagawa Archers won't get much use out of it. And when they do benefit from Arcane Protection, the Aura of Terror lowers their attack! I can't see Arcane Protection ever being useful for your other figures because of this. Maybe that trade-off is the charm of the design, but it seems more frustrating than anything.
Arcane Protection does only work against normal attacks. I was heavily considering adding range to the design recently, but now I'm concerned that he might be too strong against melee armies with that added versatility. With a normal melee attack only, his abilities to use Samurai as a screen or to kite are slightly weakened, which is important when he can make melee matchups even stronger for the faction. It also helps him stand slightly further apart from Kaemon Awa, who already has two good ranged options and a defensive power similar to his.

The combo of Aura of Terror and Arcane Protection is definitely something that I'm still feeling out. It's worth noting that the Samurai suffer less from the attack decrease than most opponents will, though, on account of their Counterstrike, which is partially why I don't exclude them from the aura. The other main reason is that his ability to counter range shores up a major weakness for the Samurai (even if it is in a limited capacity), so I don't want the bonus to feel "free." I could see him being used as a relay point to protect the Uniques so they can actually engage ranged forces, but I do want to avoid causing too much frustration.

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Originally Posted by TREX View Post
The miniature looks as if it is holding either an off color flame or my first thought was it was a soul or life force. A demon using souls is not a bad idea. I dont feel like the ranged counterstrike ability really works here. It doesnt really go to well.with the first ability. My first impression of a terrifying demon, even one in my army isnt really one that protects his comrades with the ranged counterstrike ability. I would stick with his first ability but make it enemy figures only. If he is on their team they shouldnt fear him hurting them. Give him counterstrike to keep the samurai theme. Id then incorporate the third ability into the model. Maybe have the souls of his fallen enemies protect him or use them to empower him somehow. Maybe an increase to defense.
Thanks for the suggestions. I'd prefer to keep him at only two abilities, but I'm considering dropping Arcane Protection's ability to extend to adjacent Samurai and adding in a simple third ability. I don't really like the idea of Counterstrike for Tero, though: I think that he's more distinct if he defends better against range than melee, which also gives him some interesting interplay with the rest of the Samurai.

The thematic clash between a terrifying demon and one that protects his teammates is the main thing that bothers me about this design. Aura of Terror should affect your teammates to keep in line with Akumaken (and to avoid drastically increasing the power of the Samurai), but the theme is weakened by your other figures being frightened by a figure that simultaneously protects them, I think. I could rename Arcane Protection to Demonic Protection or the like to slightly address this, but I'm not convinced that this addresses the problem.
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  #555  
Old October 14th, 2018, 05:36 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Balance: Gilliam is 85 points, like the Ice Troll Berserker, but Gilliam has only one special power
Playability: I have playtested this version of Gilliam today on October 14, 2018. He is medium so the base doesn't have to be big. The power are clear & understandable, I hope.
Creativity: His Final Guard power is new. He may have 2 automatic shields against Normal Attacks & Special Attacks, only if Gilliam is the last Guard standing.
Theme: He might be a knight, champion or something.
Accessibility: There are +20 of this sculpt at Troll and Toad and Magic Mini Man
Here is the miniature and army card for this unit.
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  #556  
Old October 14th, 2018, 06:29 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The thematic clash between a terrifying demon and one that protects his teammates is the main thing that bothers me about this design. Aura of Terror should affect your teammates to keep in line with Akumaken (and to avoid drastically increasing the power of the Samurai), but the theme is weakened by your other figures being frightened by a figure that simultaneously protects them, I think. I could rename Arcane Protection to Demonic Protection or the like to slightly address this, but I'm not convinced that this addresses the problem.
I think you are still a ways off from capturing a theme that fits the mini.


I'm curious if you can nail a theme for this mini that explicitly helps the Samurai or not.

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  #557  
Old October 14th, 2018, 06:45 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The thematic clash between a terrifying demon and one that protects his teammates is the main thing that bothers me about this design. Aura of Terror should affect your teammates to keep in line with Akumaken (and to avoid drastically increasing the power of the Samurai), but the theme is weakened by your other figures being frightened by a figure that simultaneously protects them, I think. I could rename Arcane Protection to Demonic Protection or the like to slightly address this, but I'm not convinced that this addresses the problem.
I think you are still a ways off from capturing a theme that fits the mini.


I'm curious if you can nail a theme for this mini that explicitly helps the Samurai or not.
Thanks for the honesty. Is there a specific part that you feel is detracting from the theme, or do you think that neither of the two powers fit well?

I'm fine with only indirectly helping the Samurai, which is why Aura of Terror works against all figures. Of the two powers, I'm leaning most towards altering Arcane Protection to fit the design more.
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  #558  
Old October 14th, 2018, 06:53 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The thematic clash between a terrifying demon and one that protects his teammates is the main thing that bothers me about this design. Aura of Terror should affect your teammates to keep in line with Akumaken (and to avoid drastically increasing the power of the Samurai), but the theme is weakened by your other figures being frightened by a figure that simultaneously protects them, I think. I could rename Arcane Protection to Demonic Protection or the like to slightly address this, but I'm not convinced that this addresses the problem.
How about something like this to make it feel more aggressive/demonic and less protective, while still keeping the Samurai/counter strike theme?

Demonic Reprisal

When Tero Akuma, or any Samurai you control adjacent to Tero Akuma, rolls defence dice against a normal attack from a non-adjacent figure, roll Einar Valkyrie Dice. If you roll more skulls than the attacking figure, the attacking figure receives one wound for each skull rolled greater than the number rolled by the attacking figure.


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  #559  
Old October 14th, 2018, 07:16 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Aura of Terror is great. It ties in to Akumaken and the chosen personality and also works for the mini. t
The mini doesn't demand it, though, so it could be that you go back to the drawing board and what you come up with doesn't feel nicely with it anymore. That would be okay.


The second power feels tacked on.

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  #560  
Old October 14th, 2018, 07:22 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Arcane Protection is the thing people are having a hard time with, I'm sure. If he were only helping himself, I don't think you'd be getting a lot of pushback, but the protective aura definitely sticks out on a demonic character.

Fwiw, I don't think that's really a problem. It's generally good to lean on tropes, so that someone picking up a unit can get a good intuitive feel for what's going on with it. But not every unit needs to be rigidly defined by tropes. Totally fine to have something on a card that might make someone raise an eyebrow and look up the bio to see what a figure's about. (Granted, if you go that route, you dang well better have a decent bio for them to look up!)

Like, Drake Alexander's shtick is what... katana-wielding WWII soldier with superspeed? That's not exactly a stock character we've seen before, and you couldn't totally suss out his story just from the card and the mini.

A demon that doesn't operate in a stereotypically evil/selfish way seems fine to me - especially given the allegiance to Einar rather than one of the more evil generals.

Admittedly, that's a take from someone with hardly any classic customs under his belt. If you do end up looking to rework it so that the theme is a little more intuitive for people, I'd keep the mechanics close to where they are now and just rebrand it a little. Don't emphasize that he's protecting friendlies, so much as that he's punishing opponents.

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  #561  
Old October 14th, 2018, 09:56 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The thematic clash between a terrifying demon and one that protects his teammates is the main thing that bothers me about this design. Aura of Terror should affect your teammates to keep in line with Akumaken (and to avoid drastically increasing the power of the Samurai), but the theme is weakened by your other figures being frightened by a figure that simultaneously protects them, I think. I could rename Arcane Protection to Demonic Protection or the like to slightly address this, but I'm not convinced that this addresses the problem.
How about something like this to make it feel more aggressive/demonic and less protective, while still keeping the Samurai/counter strike theme?

Demonic Reprisal

When Tero Akuma, or any Samurai you control adjacent to Tero Akuma, rolls defence dice against a normal attack from a non-adjacent figure, roll Einar Valkyrie Dice. If you roll more skulls than the attacking figure, the attacking figure receives one wound for each skull rolled greater than the number rolled by the attacking figure.
The more that I think about this, the more that I like it. Something mechanically similar can be achieved, but by putting an opposite spin on it (Tero punishing opponents instead of trying to protect allies, as Ronin also suggested), it feels a lot better. Thanks for getting my gears turning in a different direction!

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Aura of Terror is great. It ties in to Akumaken and the chosen personality and also works for the mini. t
The mini doesn't demand it, though, so it could be that you go back to the drawing board and what you come up with doesn't feel nicely with it anymore. That would be okay.

The second power feels tacked on.
Thanks for elaborating. I wasn't sure if Aura of Terror was a source of contention or if it was just how Arcane Protection felt with it. I'll cut the aura if need be, but that would only come after fixing the second power, which I think is where most of the problem lies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Arcane Protection is the thing people are having a hard time with, I'm sure. If he were only helping himself, I don't think you'd be getting a lot of pushback, but the protective aura definitely sticks out on a demonic character.

Fwiw, I don't think that's really a problem. It's generally good to lean on tropes, so that someone picking up a unit can get a good intuitive feel for what's going on with it. But not every unit needs to be rigidly defined by tropes. Totally fine to have something on a card that might make someone raise an eyebrow and look up the bio to see what a figure's about. (Granted, if you go that route, you dang well better have a decent bio for them to look up!)

Like, Drake Alexander's shtick is what... katana-wielding WWII soldier with superspeed? That's not exactly a stock character we've seen before, and you couldn't totally suss out his story just from the card and the mini.

A demon that doesn't operate in a stereotypically evil/selfish way seems fine to me - especially given the allegiance to Einar rather than one of the more evil generals.

Admittedly, that's a take from someone with hardly any classic customs under his belt. If you do end up looking to rework it so that the theme is a little more intuitive for people, I'd keep the mechanics close to where they are now and just rebrand it a little. Don't emphasize that he's protecting friendlies, so much as that he's punishing opponents.
You've given me a lot to think on thematically. I do agree that pushing tropes has its place and shouldn't be discouraged, but I think that the problem is largely how the Terrifying personality, aggressive stats, and Aura of Terror all clash with the idea of this demon saving his allies. Switching over to punishing enemies instead is a small mechanical change, but a huge thematic one that I think will make a large difference.

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback! I'm going to rework Arcane Protection and post a new version of Tero in my own thread once it's ready.
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  #562  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:21 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

What do you think about this version of Gilliam.
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  #563  
Old October 17th, 2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

I think he has three defensive powers, which is too many.

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  #564  
Old October 17th, 2018, 01:20 PM
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Re: Freelance Feedback Focus Group (3FG) - New Thread!

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I think he has three defensive powers, which is too many.
Is this version of Gilliam any good.
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