A Moderated D&D Heroscape Debate

[Aldin]

After reading hundreds of posts across at least half-a-dozen threads I was left with an overwhelming feeling of fragmentation regarding the discourse over the pros and cons of the new D&D Heroscape Masterset 3 and two expansions in 2010. I thought there were many good and important things being said on both sides of the issue, but that there were so many posts in so many different places that it was difficult to track coherent lines of reasoning. It occurred to me to ask two forum members I respect and who were eloquently taking opposite sides if they would be willing to take part in a moderated debate with a single question:

What do you see as the biggest issues (positive or negative) with the D&D branding of Heroscape in 2010?

The format to which they agreed allows each:

An opening statement
An answer to the question
A rebuttal of their opponent’s answer
A response to the rebuttal
A closing statement

I realize that there have been a lot of threads and posts on this topic recently, but I thought this format might be very useful. I should note that I did not do this acting as an Administrator, but as a forum member and fan of the game. I also want to disclose that I am very biased with respect to this debate, but believe that I am capable of moderating it fairly. I would like to request that anyone who feels negatively about the opinions expressed by either member negrep me instead of the member. After all, it’s my fault for making the thread

Without further adieu, I would like to welcome clancampbell and GreyOwl. Thank you gentlemen for your time, courage, eagerness, eloquence and passion!

• Opening Statements:

GreyOwl:
I think that any productive discussion of the future of Heroscape needs to differentiate between reality and desires. Many of the arguments I see on the forums regarding D&D Heroscape do not make this distinction, and the result is that the discussion devolves into personal attacks or nonsensical arguments.

I don't believe that in a purely desire-based discussion, there is much disagreement at all. Most people wish Heroscape would continue in the same manner it has for the first 2 masters sets and 9 waves. Some people really want to add the D&D flavor, or perhaps even other licenses, on top of that. But nobody is really actively wishing for the demise of what we've come to call "Classic Heroscape". So for the most part, I think we can all agree that we share a desire for Classic Heroscape to continue, whether exclusively or in conjunction with something else.

Once we start looking at reality, however, things get a little more complicated. No reasonable and successful company is going to change a product that is profitable for them. Since WoTC decided to make this change to Heroscape, there are only 2 possible reasons they could have made this choice: 1) WoTC is not a reasonable company, or 2) Heroscape wasn't as profitable as they needed it to be. I think we can safely ignore the first possibility, as WoTC is a well-established player in its industry and has several lines of popular and profitable products. They clearly know what they're doing from a business and marketing standpoint. Therefore, the only reason for them to make this change to Heroscape has to be that it isn't as profitable as it needs to be.

I believe that fact has to be at the core of any reasonable discussion. Ignoring that fact and simply "wishing" WoTC not changed anything at all demonstrates an unrealistic and naive view of how modern business works and the demands placed upon it by both internal and external pressures. I intend to approach this discussion from that point of view, as I believe anything else would be unproductive.

clancampbell:
Greetings,
First I'd like to thank Aldin for coming up with idea to debate, and for allowing me to be a part of it.
Secondly, I'd like to thank Greyowl for agreeing to participate.
What I hope to accomplish during this debate is to show our great community why I feel that the move towards DnD is a very bad thing. I hope to lay out many points on why I feel this way.
I want to encourage everyone who views this debate to do so with an open mind. Read both sides of the arguement without bias, and when complete, digest all the information, and come to your own conculsions.
I love this game, and would go so far as to say this is the best game I have ever played. I have a great passion for this game, and it is in that passion that I speak out against this new direction for our beloved game.
I have played many games for many years. Too often I've seen companys take an otherwise good game and make some kind of major change to it. Always, they say this is good for the game and will promote and expand it to the good of all. Too often, the same changes that were touted as good for the game, leave it in ruin, with an alienated, and angry fanbase.
I fear the same will happen to Heroscape. Thats why I have agreed to participate in this debate.
As I've said, I encourage everyone to draw their own conculsions. However, if enough of us view this in a similar way, perhaps we could change the course of gaming history, and save the game we all know and love.

• Thank you both, gentlemen. I look forward to the debate. GreyOwl, what do you see as the biggest issues (positive or negative) with the D&D branding of Heroscape in 2010?

Like any new business idea or venture, the future is unknown and will probably hold both pros and cons. In the end what will matter is which one outweighs the other.

As I said in my opening comments, there has to be a reason that WoTC is making a change, and the only logical assumption we can make as to what that reason is has to be that Heroscape was not profitable enough in its current state. This means that if something didn't change, the franchise would soon end. There's simply no other way about it.

The pros of this change are to make Heroscape economically viable so the game can continue on in a form as close as possible to its original version. Simply put, it will allow Heroscape to continue existing.

The cons of this change are that some hard-core fans and purists will not like the change, and some customers may be lost as a result of it. In addition, some fans may feel alienated by an assumed, though yet unconfirmed, shift to pure D&D, thus leaving out future possibilities for figures like the Marro or Soulborgs.

Ultimately, the desires that Heroscape should have continued as "Classic Heroscape", even at the cost of only one wave per year, are not realistic. If something isn't profitable, it can't be sustained. Infrequent releases would reduce the profitability even further. I don't believe it was a choice between "Classic Heroscape" and "D&D Heroscape". I believe it was a choice between "some other form of Heroscape" and "no more Heroscape". Out of those two options, even the most hard-core fans have to agree that WoTC made the choice most favorable to them. All other peripheral concerns about changing the gameplay experience or "ruining the game" wouldn't matter one bit if the game stopped existing. Those are fallacies that confuse desires with the reality of the situation.

So I'd like to look exactly why this move has the possibility to make Heroscape more profitable. First off, note that I keep saying "Heroscape wasn't profitable enough", as opposed to "Heroscape isn't making a profit". There is a difference, and it has to do with limited resources. Let's assume, just as a completely fabricated example, that it takes 10 people to manage and work on Heroscape, and also 10 people for D&D, and 10 more for Magic. If all 3 are profitable, but D&D and Magic are more profitable, where would you put your resources if you only have 25 empoyees? You would reasonably have to put your 20 people on D&D and Magic. Now without enough people to continue Heroscape, you can either kill the line, or maybe find a way to share resources with another team.

If something is not profitable, there are several way to try and fix it:

1. lower the cost of making the product
2. increase the sales of the product
3. expand your marketability and/or branding

I believe the branding of D&D helps achieve all 3 of these goals:

#1: This is clearly the most controversial change. One thing that makes Heroscape stand out is its high production value. But "high production value" is just another way of saying "high production cost". There is simply no way to reduce production costs without affecting the production quality, except in situations where the production process was highly inefficient to begin with. There's no reason to think that was the case at WoTC though, as they've been doing this for a while, and maintaining desired levels of profitability in their other lines. Therefore, the production quality had to be lowered, and repainting existing figures is a very common practice in the toy industry. Just see Star Wars action figures, Hotwheels, and Transformers for an example. And historically, it is proven to work. Fans of those other lines always complain about repaints, yet they almost always sell enough to justify the loss of sales by the hard-core fans. Clearly, the general public at large does not mind, or even notice, repaints of older items.

I mentioned earlier that this was likely a choice between "some other form of Heroscape" and "no more Heroscape". For the "some other form", D&D is the most logical choice. It is a closer thematic fit than Magic, and any other license would have had added licensing fees associated with them. Avoiding the paying of licensing fees also helps keep the cost of production down.

#2: Some of you may have noticed that there are now Heroscape commercials on TV. This is an effort to increase the sales of the product. I won't say any more on this point, since there really isn't any controversy surrounding it.

#3: When Heroscape was sold in retail outlets like Wal-Mart and Target, it got plenty of exposure. It was marketed as a game for kids, and that's the kind of store where board games for kids were usually purchased. Once those stores stopped carrying Heroscape, and it moved into gaming stores, it quickly became marginalized and ignored. That's because a "kid's game" wasn't taken seriously in that environment. This rebranding to the stable and lucrative D&D brand will help get more promotion and visibility for the product. It doesn't matter if hard-core D&D players like it or not (they probably won't). What matters is that the stores display it and promote it more, so others that may be interested take notice. The stores will promote it more, because it says D&D. People will buy it more, because it is promoted more, not necessarily because it says D&D.


WotC is clearly taking initiative in all 3 areas to try sustain the Heroscape franchise. I understand, and even share, the concerns of those worried about the lower quality of miniatures, the possible shifting in theme for the game, or the possible dilution of the game to something less pure than what it started as. But those are all wishes and desires that the game had stayed completely as it was before. They are not realistic, because something had to change, regardless of what we all may have desired.

• Thank you GreyOwl. clancampbell, your rebuttal?

I disagree with the assesment that Heroscape was not profitable enough. To that end, I say to WoTC, prove it.

While Greyowl lays out good points, I'm at odds with his assesment because, as I said, I'm not convinced that is true.

If it is indeed true, than I feel either my star wars senario or my Drizzt/ other big names senario, would be better answers to all three of Greyowl's points, rather than the route WoTC is taking.

This set has been touted as bringing in the DnD minis crowd to our game. As Greyowl himself admits, the DnD crowd probably won't buy it. A fail for WoTC, and another reason my star wars or Drizzt senarios work better.

• Thank you clancampbell. GreyOwl, your response?

Due to the nature of corporate laws, WotC doesn't have to prove it. They are a privately held company (LLC) that is a subsidiary of a publicly owned company, which is Hasbro. Hasbro does release their financial reports, since they are public, but it does not include details of WotC's operations. Those are just rolled into the total Hasbro financials. Hasbro is actually doing quite well, but that's due mostly to the Transformers and G.I. Joe franchises that they own and the recent movies, along with the Star Wars franchise being bolstered by the Clone Wars TV series. That success can't be taken as any indication of how WotC is doing.

But I'm not just throwing out the idea that Heroscape may not be profitable enough. Let's look at some facts. Some of WotC's biggest product lines are D&D, Pokemon, Magic: The Gathering, and Star Wars Miniatures. I think we can all agree that each of those is likely more profitable than Heroscape. They have a much wider audience, have been around longer, and get much more exposure in various media.

Other facts: in 1999, WotC's president was replaced when Hasbro took over. In 2001, the CEO was replaced. In 2004, their CEO was replaced again. In 2008, their CEO was replaced yet again. Major companies don't replace their leaders unless things aren't going well. Doing that often is not a good sign for the financial health of the company. WotC also reduced its workforce in at least 2003, 2007, and 2008 (there may have been more as well). That also points to financial troubles. So if the company is having financial problems, and Heroscape is one of their least profitable lines, it stands to reason that Heroscape wasn't profitable enough for them. For a larger company, or a more profitable company, or the same company in a different economic environment, it may have been fine. But given these specific circumstances, we can only assume that Heroscape wasn't quite profitable enough. Yet, it likely held enough potential to not eliminate entirely, too. That is something we should feel fortunate for, and not something we should blame them for.

I explained in my previous comments about why using big names like Drizzt or Star Wars may not have been feasible, so I won't repeat them here. And as I also stated before, the D&D brand may or may not bring in existing D&D players, but I still believe that wasn't the goal. Instead, the goal was to have leverage over stores that already carry D&D and an effort to encourage them to do more to promote Heroscape. Whether they actually do it or not, WotC would now have some leverage to make deals like "if you want to carry D&D miniatures, you must also carry Heroscape". That is a crude example for illustrative purposes only, but it conveys the type of influence WotC could potentially gain by this move. The actual deals would likely be more complex and subtle, but with the same goal in mind.

• Thank you, GreyOwl.

• clancampbell, what do you see as the biggest issues (positive or negative) with the D&D branding of Heroscape in 2010?

Almost from the time it was announced that WoTC would be taking over heroscape there has been some discontent. Many have stated that all WoTC cares about are their 2 main games, Magic and DnD. Everything else is minor, and would be treated like a red headed stepchild. I don't see how this move towards DnD scape can be taken as anything but a mistreatment of heroscape. Their simply taking their stepchild and dressing him up to look like his older, cooler, and more loved brother. That is the first slap in the face to us heroscape fans.

While many supporters of this move are hoping that this project will lead back to "classic scape", I just don't see how that will happen. If this set or sets fail, that may convince WoTC that scape is not worth it and they could pull the plug. If it succeeds, it will be seen as what is wanted, and will be continued to be produced.

I have been glued to this site since the day of the announcement. When DnD scape was speculated, I got a terrible feeling in the pit of my stomach. When it was confirmed, I felt as if I had been punched. While some hoped that this would be a one off production, I lowered my head, because, sadly, I knew it would not be. When it was confirmed that this would be fully intergrated with scape, I knew that this is the future. Then with the announcement that the next two waves would be all DnD waves, my fears were confirmed. I don't profess to be a prophet, but I've seen all this coming.

Perhaps I'm jaded, but I've seen all too often what WoTC does to games. Rampant rule changes, new editions and the dreaded power creep. Magic and DnD are rife with power creep. Why you might ask. Simple, to force you to buy more stuff to "keep up with the joneses." I'm all for a company trying to make money, but Hasbro managed to keep power creep out of scape and still seemed to make money.

The minis themselves aren't even new, we are simply being handed minis from another game and told to be happy. The scale and quality are off, and aside from the looks, these minis just feel wrong.

Now, the money issue. Greyowl alluded to it in his opening statement. Perhaps scape was not as profitable as they want or need it to be. I think not. The buzz for wave 9 was huge, and while I don't have the hard numbers, I can imagine that it sold well. No, I think that WoTC has long wanted to make scape their own by putting the DnD stamp on it. I wouldn't be surprised, and I belive it to be true, that WoTC has had plans for DnD scape since they got the game and the economy is a convienent excuse.

Lets say for a moment that I belive that this change is fueled by economics alone. A need to generate more income and expand the player base. Ok, then wouldn't the star wars label accomplish this better? WoTC already has the star wars license with the star wars minis game, so that wouldn't be an issue. They have lots of exsisting minis to re-use, so that would be similar to what their already doing with the DnD minis. Futhermore, star wars has a much larger fan base, and a bigger mass market appeal than does DnD. Most kids know the star wars label, and most parents would readily buy star wars related things for their children. Many non-gamers would buy in just because it says star wars. Heck, make a set with a Bobba Fett mini, and some star wars fans would buy the whole set for that figure alone. Lots of us on this site have asked for, and hoped for a star wars set, I've not seen any where near the same amount of folks ask for DnD.

Finally, if it must be DnD, and it will be, WoTC flubbed there too. You want a broader appeal, put some of the well know and liked DnD characters in there. Drizzt, Elminster, and all the characters from the series with Drizzt would have much more appeal than the generic figures were getting. It might even bring in some fans of the books that are not gamers. I understand that folks like the generic figures, as that has been what scape has been all about. However, if we look at from the perspective of bringing in new fans, named characters would be more attractive. Brett Farve, Shaq, Mel Gibson, Meagan Fox. Big names that put butts in seats. Drizzt would put butts in seats, around the game table.

So, had WoTC truely wanted to generate more revenue and expand the fan base, either of the above senarios would have worked better. I see the economy excuse as just that, an excuse to make scape another DnD game. Thus supporting their big name, and leaving us behind.

I feel cheated and lied to. Of course, this isn't the first time WoTC has left me feeling this way.

• Thank you, clancampbell. GreyOwl, your rebuttal?

I feel clancampbell's pain at the prospect of potentially losing something he feels so passionate about, or at least having it change to something he'd rather it not change into. I can't even say I disagree with him on that point. However, I also don't think it's fair to blame someone, WotC in this specific case, for doing something that they most likely didn't have a choice in. Their primary concern is not keeping the purest fans happy, but making profits and keeping their employees employed. If Heroscape wasn't profitable enough, perhaps it just means that enough of the public wasn't interested in it, no matter how amazing we all know it to be. It happens with other products as well, it's not necessarily the best product that is embraced by the public at large.

Wave 9 may have sold tremendously well (or it may not have, I don't have the numbers either), but that's not the point. The point is, what was the profit margin on wave 9? You could sell 100,000 packs for $10 each and make a million dollars. But if it costs you $9 to make each pack, you only made $100,000. If you have limited resources and people to work on these, wouldn't you focus on another product that made you $4-5 per sale, rather than just $1? Again, the profit margin is the key.

Using Star Wars is an interesting idea. Personally, being a huge Star Wars freak I wouldn't have minded that in the least. But there are financial reasons for not doing that as well. For one thing, most people that are clamoring for Star Wars Heroscape are wanting it in addition to classic, not instead of it. But if Classic Heroscape was not profitable enough, it had to change. Changing it outright to Star Wars Heroscape, in my opinion, would have been too dramatic of a shift from the Classic theme and would have alleniated even more people. D&D is the closest possible theme they could have picked. The other issue with Star Wars is the license. WotC may have a license to Star Wars Miniatures, but they don't own the Star Wars license outright, like they do with D&D. Those Star Wars licenses are given out by Lucasfilm for specific products only. The license they have may not apply to making Heroscape, at least not without paying extra. For example, Hasbro has a Star Wars license to make action figures and LEGO has one to make LEGO sets. But Hasbro does not have a license to make Star Wars building block sets, and LEGO cannot make Star Wars action figures. Each of those is negotiated separately.

As for why they did not use more recognized D&D names, like Drizzt, there could be several reasons. One possible reason could be licensing, again. I'm not sure who owns the license to those characters - whether it's WotC or the author that created them (R.A. Salvatore). If it's the author, that might be a reason they aren't being used. But another reason is to keep the Heroscape figures as original to Heroscape as possible, which coincidentally is what people are saying they want.

People are upset that Heroscape is becoming too different from the Classic. But at the same time, it makes no sense to blame WotC by not making it even more different by using already existing characters or changing to Star Wars outright.

I think one has to step back and see that WotC is actually doing everything they can given the hand they've been dealt. Heroscape isn't profitable enough so they 1) come up with a way to continue Heroscape rather than cancel it, 2) decided to continue working with the same quality team that made all the previous cards we know and love, 3) picked a new license/theme that is as close as possible to Classic Heroscape, and 4) decided to go with original characters instead of reusing D&D ones, and 5) even provided some new terrain while they were at it. Honestly, what else could they have done to satisfy the Heroscape community without risking the entire line or going out of business altogether?

Keeping it "as is" would have been absolutely fantastic, but it's just a wish.

I'd also like to add that the new cards were all designed and tested by people that share a passion for the game as much, or more likely more, than we all do. GrungeBob, Rÿchean, Truth, etc...people say they trust them to have made the cards well. I wholeheartedly agree. But it isn't just about the cards. Beyond their ability to create and test cards, I also trust their integrity that they didn't go along with this change for superficial reasons, to sell out, or anything of the sort. Those guys take this very seriously and the parts of themselves they put into this is no small thing. If they went along with this, that means they believe it is a quality product. That speaks volumes to me, and hopefully does so to anyone else that cares about Heroscape as well. I think we should exercise that trust, rather than just saying it, and have faith that they helped make this great.

• Thank you, GreyOwl. clancampbell, your response?

I see Greyowl's points. He's taking the lemons that have been given to us, and is making lemonade. For that, I commend him.

Its just a sad state of affairs when most of the "supporters" of this move have to do the same thing. Its better than no scape, seems to be the battle cry of the "supporters". We all put our money into this game. More importantly, we've all put time and energy into this game, organizing demos and tournies. I've supported the game and the community since I found this site. We really do have one of the best, if not the best, community around. It saddens me that this is now what were handed, where even the most optomistic of us must make due. We deserve better.

I understand that a move to star wars scape would have changed the game more radically than DnD. However, looking at it from a purely financial angle, it would make more sense.

Again, I'm not convinced that the game was causing financial peril for WoTC. Its a large company, owned by an even larger one. (Hasbro) Even in a recesession, people will still buy games, as purchasing a board or other type game and spending an evening with the family is cheaper than a night at the movies, or bowling, or anything else thats done for entertainment.

I'm sure Truth and Co. are doing what they can for the game, but at the same time, I feel its a lemon into lemonade senario for them as well. I'm sure their doing the best with what was handed to them, but what was handed to them smells like yesterdays garbage.

Perhaps I've allowed my emotions to get in the way, or cloud my judgement. I just expected better treatment.

I respect Greyowl, and he has laid out some fine points. For me, I can't shake the feeling that we've been had, and this is simply an attempt on the part of WoTC to make heroscape look and feel more like their favorite son.

• Thank you, clancampbell.

• We are now ready for closing remarks from you both, gentlemen.

GreyOwl:
I don't know if you can really call WotC a "big company" or not. They only have 300 employees, which is pretty small for a company that markets its products globally. And I agree that going pure Star Wars Heroscape would have been likely more profitable for them. So therefore, I think they should be given some credit for not doing that in the interest of trying to keep Heroscape as close as possible to the original.

I'm not so much trying to make lemonade out of lemons (well, maybe a little), but rather I'm saying we should realize that WotC are the ones that were handed lemons, and this is the lemonade they're trying to make from it. They were given a franchise that was less profitable than their others, during an economic crisis where they were already having financial trouble. Doing what they have done, like releasing wave 10 instead of a straight re-release of wave 5, and Master Set 3 instead of possibly nothing at all, should be seen in a positive light because they are trying instead of just giving up.

In conclusion, I just want to thank Aldin for this innovative idea and for being such a gracious and professional moderator, and clancampbell for taking the time and effort to participate. Regardless of our differences in opinion, I have nothing but respect for him, especially for the level of his passion for the game. That can do nothing but benefit us all. I also want to thank all the other members of the forums for being part of such a great community, without which we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Thanks again to all of you!


clancampbell:
Well, this has certainly been a fustrating and exciting exercise all at once. Again, I'd like to thank Aldin for setting this all up and moderating for us. As well as asking me to be a part of it.

I'd also like to thank Greyowl. Its hard to be on opposite sides of such a polarizing issue. Greyowl made good points, and his passion and love for this game is clear. Despite the fact that we disagree, we were able to have a disscussion with respect for one another. I'd encourage everyone in the community, as the debates on this issue continue, to use our disscussion as an example. Its ok to disagree, but please maintain respect for your fellow man.

I'm still of the belife that this is bad for the game. I'm not selling my collection or anything like that, and I await the new set to see what changes it might bring.

I'm left with the feeling that perhaps Hasbro should have keep it or WoTC should have said they didn't want it.
What's clear is, like it or not, DnD scape is coming. If you like it, enjoy, if not, there are ways to make your voice heard. E-mail WoTC, and tell them how you feel. Maintain respect if you do so. While I feel that they have made bad decisions, they are people too, and deserve that much.

Thanks, good night, and happy scaping!

• That concludes our debate. Once again I would like to thank you both. I greatly appreciated your in-depth takes on the issues facing our community of Heroscape players as we enter into 2010.

~Aldin, well-pleased moderator

[ElvenEnvy]

Thanks for bringing this to us.


Personally I'm just gonna wait and see how I feel when I get the box in my hands and spill out the contents.

If it didn't have DnD on the label I'd be celebrating the drows and wondering about the figures quality, but still happy for something new. Since it does I have to wonder about the games future. But alas I'll wait till I see the cards and hold the figure to truly know how I feel.

[GreyOwl]

That was an interesting experience, thanks again for including me.

[Sherman Davies]

Great idea, Aldin, and an example of why this forum is heads and shoulders above other fansites - for all our ups and downs and disagreements, we try to maintain a civil discourse.

EDIT: GreyOwl is incorrect, though, when he says that "nobody is really actively wishing for the demise of what we've come to call 'Classic Heroscape.'"

Originally Posted by Drumline3469

I am just hoping they transition from Regular Scape to DnD Scape, but honestly, both are great.

It may be a very small minority, but there it is.

[southwest ninja]

I cant take this, where's all the name calling and posting in all caps? no one even ignored someone?!?!?!?! thats it back to the first thread!

[killercactus]

I'm going to echo what I said in one of the other threads, but not be quite as blunt and cynical about it.

First, realize that I'm just a pure Heroscape fan. I've played true D&D one time, and it lasted about an hour. I didn't like it at all.


That being said, I'm completely jazzed about D&D Heroscape. One reason might be because I don't know the figures, so they're new to me. However, I knew all of the Marvel figures they released, and I was completely jazzed about them, too. If they weren't made to be their own stand-alone game, I'd play them just as I would any Classic 'Scape unit. The point is, any new units for Heroscape is freaking awesome news.

Secondly, I see that a lot of people are disappointed that the D&D minis are being reused. Again, they're new to me, so I'm cool with it. But for me, the joy of Heroscape doesn't come from the sculpts of the minis. It comes from using their abilities together, creating an army and actually playing the game. As a person that grew up playing Chess and Checkers, I guess the need for aesthetically pleasing pieces isn't at the top of the list for me - gameplay is. I'm also one of those people that would rather play the NES Zelda than any other in the series - again, it's gameplay, not graphics. That's what brings me, and I think most of the community, back over and over again to play more 'Scape.

Also, thanks to RotV releasing some of the strongest units to date (Krav Maga Agents, Raelin, Airborne Elite, Grimnak, Marro Warriors, etc.), it'll be very tough for power creep to infect 'Scape in my opinion. Especially when units like the 4th Mass, Trons and Q9 are considered.... WotC would have to make some super-powerful units to start a creep up in power.

So, I guess my question is "What's the big deal where Heroscape gets new units from?" As long as it gets new units, and those new units enhance the game (and possibly bring in more players), why is this not a good thing?

[boogle]

This was an excellent thread, I read the whole thing through. Thank you all very much for debating. It just goes to show how serious us scapers are about the product's future. At least I can rest assured that if ever heroscape were to die, there would still be fans to meet and play with years after its demise. This is all possible because of heroscapers.com.

[Uprising]

Originally Posted by killercactus

So, I guess my question is "What's the big deal where Heroscape gets new units from?" As long as it gets new units, and those new units enhance the game (and possibly bring in more players), why is this not a good thing?

If they released Pokeman characters into Scape, would you play them?

[gorthan313]

Originally Posted by Uprising

If they released Pokeman characters into Scape, would you play them?

I would.

[chas]

Nice innovation, and good work all three of you! In the "Before Heroscape" thread on other games that helped inspire HEROSCAPE, it states that D&D Minis were very successful for WOTC before it shut them down. That's something to think about.

[Warlord Alpha]

Originally Posted by gorthan313

I would.

Oh man. I am not a big fan of Star Wars and that kind of thing being brought into Heroscape, but a Pokemon stand-alone the likes of Marvel would be AWESOME. Pokemon would work surprisingly well, too. Certain pokemon are faster, slower, etc. Over time they could evolve in battle, or if you want you could draft an already-evolved pokemon for a much higher cost.

That would be so sick.

Before I derail the thread further, great idea Aldin. Very nice to just see some facts and logical argument.

[IAmBatman]

Excellent idea for a thread, Aldin! I tried giving you some rep for this great contribution to this debate, but I'm sadly out at the moment.
That said, now that this debate has been held, should this thread be locked before it devolves into a non moderated debate (the likes of which have been had several times over in half a dozen other threads)?