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Custom Units & Army Cards Fan-created HS army cards for units, glyphs, and equipment |
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#1
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Unit Viability
The recent discussion in the pre SoV workshop (and other places) has got me thinking a bit. Should all units be viable? Is it currently a bad thing that they are not? Why? There has been a long history of this question (as epitomized in the Embrace the Suck thread and as things like Competitive Unit Congress and Delta+ have attempted to correct) but I'm curious what the community at large feels about this and how it affects customs.
Is it currently a problem that a unit like 4th is very easily viable whereas you need a crazy person to run Dünd and Sudema in the same army ()? Why or why not? Is this something that should be rectified with customs, shouldn't be rectified with customs or more of a case by case thing? I find myself largely indifferent on these issues and was wanting a broader perspective and discussion. I'd love to hear what people think. ~Dysole, customarily My Twitch Channel where I play Scape and other things My YouTube Channel where the games get uploaded later Dysole's Draft Rankings Map Thread (Not responsible for psychic damage) Customs Battle Reports This sentence is seven words long. This sentence is not seven words long. |
#2
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Re: Unit Viability
As evidenced by my attempt with Marshall and the Warforged I am more of a synergy fan then not and would like to get as many units towards increased viability as possible. I'd say I am somewhere between should be rectified with customs and "more of a case by case thing."
Customs here Master Set IV/Assault in the Mournlands. William099 is Lord of Blades... in THE FRACTAL COMPLEX |
#3
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Re: Unit Viability
No. The notions that all units should be similarly viable in a competitive setting, and that units should tend to have direct synergy with other units, are both anathema.
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#4
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Re: Unit Viability
Thanks for starting this. I'm pretty sure I can go on all day about this topic but I'll try to keep myself brief: It's complicated.
By the nature of games, some things are just going to be better than others. Even if we don't factor in synergies, formats, good and bad match ups, and the effect of terrain, the granularity of the point system alone (5 pt increments) means that some units are just going to end up as slightly more efficient than others. Trying to solve that completely will be patently absurd. Moreover, some effects are high impact but also high variance which almost need to be costed higher than their average would suggest for overall gameplay purposes. However, when playing competitively in general, players will tend to do what is needed to win and not what will make them have the most fun. As a rule of thumb it is important to let players have fun and reward them for doing so, so if they want to play Templar Cavalry because they think they are fun, it can be said that it is good if they can still win for doing so. But games also shouldn't be too easy and are supposed to challenge players, so it is also good for some builds to be viable but more skill testing to actually operate and win with. Some of these units may even seem bad to some, even if they are quite good. The story ends up getting pretty complicated (and this is just the surface), but I'll always hold that individual custom creators are free to address matters however they desire for their own tables. For larger projects like C3V and SoV, I think it is important to try to wrestle with these concepts and pick your battles on where certain synergies should be spread to increase the fun and where they should be curbed for the good of the overall game.
Spoiler Alert!
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#5
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Re: Unit Viability
This is always, always true, and I certainly didn't intend to suggest otherwise. I'm only talking about the customs that are meant for inclusion in the shared canon, which is to say, the C3V or the SoV. Part of the shared canon is the independence of many units from direct synergy, and part of it is units that offer something other than obvious value in a traditional competitive setting.
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#6
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Re: Unit Viability
There will never be a day where we can make all units into A+ ones, but I don't think it hurts when people try to make the really bad ones more playable. It does add more units to a more realistic picture of a fun army, but really competitive games will always include a very strict sum of figures to roll with.
So, yeah, I guess I support trying to increase unity viability, because doing so will inevitably increase unit variety. But that's just my two cents. And pennies are near worthless these days. ~TAF TAF was the Storyteller... in THE ENEMY'S LAST RETREAT |
#7
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Re: Unit Viability
Mark Rosewater (of Magic the Gathering fame) has a great article on this called "When Cards Go Bad" that you can read HERE. It's sort of my go-to in these discussions; some stuff is more relevant than others (the details about blind purchases and rarity levels naturally), but all in all there's a lot you can apply. And I see Ixe mentioned him before me.
It's essentially my thought on the subject. The parts that stand out are "Diversity of Power Rewards the More Skilled Player" and "Different Cards Appeal to Different Players." For the first, if every figure is viable, then every army is viable; thus, anyone who's competent at building an army will be on an even playing field. If certain units and builds are better than others, then army building itself becomes an important part of the game, and another skill necessary for high-level play. Furthermore, it's okay for cards to suck, as long as they're interesting. I love sucky units. Sometimes I want to play with the Sacred Band instead of the Romans because, hey, today I'm feeling Greek. The Marro Drudge are super cool looking, so yeah, I'll give them a spin. And even if 90% of the time, Deathwalker 7000 is a waste of points, sometimes it's really cool to pull off a suicide bombing with him. Sometimes it's fun to play low-stakes games and include units that aren't that good. The issue is when a unit is released that is neither fun to play, fun in concept, or viable. I don't think VC has released a single unit that fits that description yet. EDIT: Oh, and it should be noted, the ability of discovery is an important part of army building. I think, as more "official" customs are released, more support for the "non-viable" units will naturally arise, unplanned. As more powers offer new interactions, older units will pop back into relevance. That's just the nature of the beast. No reason to force it. JOHNNY139'S CLASSIC CUSTOM THREAD! | Visit now!
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#8
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Re: Unit Viability
FWIW here's the list of all units that were not used in online play from Season 8 through season 16. Some were used in earlier seasons (I know I played against VBDs once) but it would take some effort to collect that data.
Code:
0 Feral Troll 0 Marro Drudge 0 Retiarius 0 Roman Archers 0 Runa 0 Sahuagin Raider 0 Sir Dupuis 0 Sonlen 0 Torin 0 Varkaanan Blade Dancers [VC]] Code:
83 Isamu 56 Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [RotV] 53 Marcu Esenwein 41 Krav Maga Agents 35 Otonashi 31 Marro Warriors 28 Cyprien Esenwein 26 Guilty McCreech 26 Knights of Weston 25 Deathreavers 22 Kaemon Awa 22 Sonya Esenwein 21 Greenscale Warriors 21 Phantom Knights 19 Kira Jax [VC] 19 Me-Burq-Sa 18 Axegrinders of Burning Forge 18 B-11 Resistance Corps [VC] 18 Eldgrim the Viking Champion 18 Marcus Decimus Gallus 16 10th Regiment of Foot 16 Airborne Elite 15 Agent Skahen 15 Finn the Viking Champion 15 Kursus [VC] 15 Siiv [VC] 14 Sir Gilbert 14 Theracus 14 Zetacron 13 Aubrien Archers 13 Goblin Cutters 13 Heirloom 13 Krug 13 Major Q10 13 Major Q9 13 Marrden Hounds 13 Marro Dividers 13 Nhah Scirh Cultists [VC] 13 Nilfheim 13 Venoc Warlord 13 Zombies of Morindan 12 Arrow Gruts 12 Black Wyrmling 12 Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [SotM] 12 Roman Legionnaires 12 Swog Rider 11 Cathar Spearmen [VC] 11 Dumutef Guard 11 Marro Stingers 11 Mogrimm Forgehammer 11 Nakita Agents 11 Tagawa Samurai 10 Augamo [VC] 10 Braxas 10 Dreadgul Raiders [VC] 10 Fen Hydra 10 Fyorlag Spiders 10 Havech Eradicators [VC] 10 Hoplitron [VC] 10 Minions of Utgar 10 Quahon [VC] 10 Skeletons of Annellintia [VC] 10 Su-Bak-Na 10 Syvarris 10 Varkaanan Greyspears [VC] 10 Varkaanan Swiftfangs [VC] 9 Armoc Vipers 9 Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior 9 Brave Arrow 9 Heavy Gruts 9 James Murphy 9 Marrden Nagrubs 9 Moltenclaw 9 Ninjas of the Northern Wind 9 Thorgrim the Viking Champion 9 Van Nessing [VC] 9 Warden 816 9 Warriors of Ashra 8 Agent Carr 8 Air Elemental 8 Bahadur [VC] 8 Blastatrons 8 Count Raymond [VC] 8 Death Chasers of Thesk 8 Drow Chainfighter 8 Microcorp Troopers [VC] 8 Migol Ironwill 8 Nicholas Esenwein [VC] 8 Red Wyrmling 8 Taelord the Kyrie Warrior 8 Varkaanan Darkclaws [VC] 8 Varkaanan Quickblades [VC] 7 Alastair MacDirk 7 Beakface Sneaks [VC] 7 Brunak 7 Command Courier [VC] 7 Deathcommander Mark 3 [VC] 7 Fire Elemental 7 Grimnak 7 Jotun 7 Kurrok the Elementalist 7 Laglor 7 M-43 Resistance Fighters [VC] 7 Mind Flayer Mastermind 7 Mohican River Tribe 7 Mok [VC] 7 Ne-Gok-Sa 7 Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider 7 Omnicron Repulsors 7 Quorik Warwitch [VC] 7 Valguard 7 Wolves of Badru 7 Zelrig 7 Zettian Infantry [VC] 7 Zombie Hulk [VC] 6 4th Massachusetts Line 6 Acolarh 6 Arkmer 6 Crixus 6 Deadeye Dan 6 Death Knights of Valkrill 6 Deathstrike Thrall [VC] 6 Earth Elemental 6 Eltahale 6 Gladiatrons 6 Haduc [VC] 6 Iskra Esenwein 6 Izumi Samurai 6 Kantono Daishi [VC] 6 Kumiko 6 Mezzodemon Warmongers 6 Morgoloth [VC] 6 Moriko 6 Obsidian Guards 6 Sgt. Drake Alexander [SotM] 6 Shaolin Monks 6 Sir Denrick 6 Sir Orrick [VC] 6 Tarn Viking Warriors 6 Tor-Kul-Na 6 Warforged Soldiers 5 Arktos [VC] 5 Blue Wyrmling 5 Capt. John Varan [VC] 5 Capuan Gladiators 5 Charos 5 Darrak Ambershard 5 Horned Skull Brutes 5 Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan 5 MacDirk Warriors 5 Major X17 5 Marro Drones 5 Ornak 5 Sgt. Drake Alexander [RotV] 5 Shurrak 5 Skull Demon [VC] 5 Tul-Bak-Ra 5 Water Elemental 5 Werewolf Lord 4 Azurite Warlord [VC] 4 Concan the Kyrie Warrior 4 Cxurg'gyath [VC] 4 Deathwalker 9000 4 Estivara 4 Granite Guardians 4 Grigor & Rogirg [VC] 4 Ice Troll Berserker 4 Iron Golem 4 Khosumet the Darklord 4 Kyntela Gwyn 4 Manauvi [VC] 4 Myrddin [VC] 4 Ogre Pulverizer 4 Omnicron Snipers 4 Parmenio 4 Preyblood Thrall [VC] 4 Protectors of Ullar 4 Racheim [VC] 4 Rechets of Bogdan 4 Sacred Band 4 Samuel Brown 4 Spartacus 4 Sujoah 4 Tomb Skeletons [VC] 4 Ulginesh 4 Venoc Vipers 4 Vulcanmech Incendiborgs [VC] 4 White Wyrmling 4 Zogross Hardscale [VC] 3 Anubian Wolves 3 Arashara Goshiri [VC] 3 Ashigaru Harquebus 3 Ashigaru Yari 3 Einar Imperium 3 Elite Onyx Vipers 3 Emirroon 3 Empress Kiova 3 Gorillinators 3 Grok Riders 3 Kozuke Samurai 3 Marro Hive 3 Martial La Hire [VC] 3 Master of the Hunt 3 Master Win Chiu Woo 3 Microcorp Agents 3 Mimring 3 Othkurik The Black Dragon 3 Rhogar Dragonspine 3 Sentinels of Jandar 3 Shades of Bleakwoode 3 Tagawa Samurai Archers 3 Tomoe Gozen [VC] 3 Tornak 3 Ulfrid Hornwrangler [VC] 3 Wo-Sa-Ga 3 Wyvern 3 Zaeus [VC] 2 Blade Gruts 2 Brimstone [VC] 2 Chardris 2 Deathstalkers 2 Deathwalker 7000 2 Deathwalker 8000 2 Eilan Sidhe [VC] 2 Elaria the Pale [VC] 2 Gurei-Oni 2 Jorhdawn 2 Kato Katsuro 2 Kee-Mo-Shi 2 Ogre Warhulk 2 Omegacron [VC] 2 Quasatch Hunters 2 Sharwin Wildborn 2 Shiori 2 Sudema 2 Tandros Kreel 2 Tyrian the Kyrie Warrior [VC] 1 Ana Karithon 1 Brandis Skyhunter 1 Deepwyrm Drow 1 Dund 1 Dzu-Teh 1 Erevan Sunshadow 1 Evar Scarcarver 1 Frost Giant of Morh 1 Greater Ice Elemental 1 Hatamoto Taro 1 Kelda the Kyrie Warrior 1 Marro Gnids [VC] 1 Mika Connour 1 Morsbane 1 Pelloth 1 Priscus [VC] 1 Saylind the Kyrie Warrior 1 Siege 1 Sir Hawthorne 1 Templar Cavalry 1 Zettian Guards 0 Feral Troll 0 Marro Drudge 0 Retiarius 0 Roman Archers 0 Runa 0 Sahuagin Raider 0 Sir Dupuis 0 Sonlen 0 Torin 0 Varkaanan Blade Dancers [VC] Last edited by dok; November 18th, 2014 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Isamu is like a tumor |
#9
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Re: Unit Viability
That proves it! The Roman Archers suck!
My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. Last edited by flameslayer93; November 18th, 2014 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Not really, they just aren't for modern play |
#10
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Re: Unit Viability
Oooh! I do love to see stats and trends. I really have to commend the OHS organizers for how the formats do encourage novel play and units. I'm also proud to say that I was the one that brought in Hatamoto Taro and did quite poorly because of it . I'm still surprised to see the diversity of units and I think some of that can probably be chalked up general probability given the number of events and players. Even a uniform probability distribution could come up short on some figures if you roll it out.
Quote:
However, let's take a historical approach and consider the Gladiator faction for a moment. When they were first released, it was three lone heroes built around Spartacus. At that point, it would have been perfectly reasonable to believe that the gladiators would always just be lone heroes with a synergy built around the highly priced Spartacus. Thematically, lone hero gladiators made a fair bit of sense since they weren't all that organized even at the height of their rebellion and the iconic theme of gladiator matches is often 1 on 1. Then a bonding squad was released that put the steam roller as viable option and elevated the formerly bad Spartacus up to being the lynchpin of the army. Given scenarios like this, I have trouble seeing how we can definitively say that it cannot or should not happen for other groups. I certainly don't think it should happen for everyone or that things need to be rushed and forced, but denying some units on that criteria alone feels a little closed off to me. |
#11
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Re: Unit Viability
FWIW, Spartacus, et al, actually were tested with the Capuans before they were released. But for whatever reason it took a long time for the squad to follow.
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#12
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Re: Unit Viability
Code:
0 Feral Troll 0 Marro Drudge 0 Retiarius 0 Roman Archers 0 Runa 0 Sahuagin Raider 0 Sir Dupuis 0 Sonlen 0 Torin 0 Varkaanan Blade Dancers [VC]] Now I just want to include some of these guys in my next tourney season! Customs here Master Set IV/Assault in the Mournlands. William099 is Lord of Blades... in THE FRACTAL COMPLEX |
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