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  #1  
Old November 18th, 2014, 03:01 PM
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Unit Viability

The recent discussion in the pre SoV workshop (and other places) has got me thinking a bit. Should all units be viable? Is it currently a bad thing that they are not? Why? There has been a long history of this question (as epitomized in the Embrace the Suck thread and as things like Competitive Unit Congress and Delta+ have attempted to correct) but I'm curious what the community at large feels about this and how it affects customs.

Is it currently a problem that a unit like 4th is very easily viable whereas you need a crazy person to run Dünd and Sudema in the same army ()? Why or why not?

Is this something that should be rectified with customs, shouldn't be rectified with customs or more of a case by case thing?

I find myself largely indifferent on these issues and was wanting a broader perspective and discussion. I'd love to hear what people think.

~Dysole, customarily
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  #2  
Old November 18th, 2014, 03:23 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

As evidenced by my attempt with Marshall and the Warforged I am more of a synergy fan then not and would like to get as many units towards increased viability as possible. I'd say I am somewhere between should be rectified with customs and "more of a case by case thing."

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  #3  
Old November 18th, 2014, 03:30 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

No. The notions that all units should be similarly viable in a competitive setting, and that units should tend to have direct synergy with other units, are both anathema.


The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
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Old November 18th, 2014, 03:32 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

Thanks for starting this. I'm pretty sure I can go on all day about this topic but I'll try to keep myself brief: It's complicated.

By the nature of games, some things are just going to be better than others. Even if we don't factor in synergies, formats, good and bad match ups, and the effect of terrain, the granularity of the point system alone (5 pt increments) means that some units are just going to end up as slightly more efficient than others. Trying to solve that completely will be patently absurd. Moreover, some effects are high impact but also high variance which almost need to be costed higher than their average would suggest for overall gameplay purposes.

However, when playing competitively in general, players will tend to do what is needed to win and not what will make them have the most fun. As a rule of thumb it is important to let players have fun and reward them for doing so, so if they want to play Templar Cavalry because they think they are fun, it can be said that it is good if they can still win for doing so. But games also shouldn't be too easy and are supposed to challenge players, so it is also good for some builds to be viable but more skill testing to actually operate and win with. Some of these units may even seem bad to some, even if they are quite good.

The story ends up getting pretty complicated (and this is just the surface), but I'll always hold that individual custom creators are free to address matters however they desire for their own tables. For larger projects like C3V and SoV, I think it is important to try to wrestle with these concepts and pick your battles on where certain synergies should be spread to increase the fun and where they should be curbed for the good of the overall game.

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Old November 18th, 2014, 03:36 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
individual custom creators are free to address matters however they desire for their own tables.
This is always, always true, and I certainly didn't intend to suggest otherwise. I'm only talking about the customs that are meant for inclusion in the shared canon, which is to say, the C3V or the SoV. Part of the shared canon is the independence of many units from direct synergy, and part of it is units that offer something other than obvious value in a traditional competitive setting.

The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
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  #6  
Old November 18th, 2014, 03:57 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

There will never be a day where we can make all units into A+ ones, but I don't think it hurts when people try to make the really bad ones more playable. It does add more units to a more realistic picture of a fun army, but really competitive games will always include a very strict sum of figures to roll with.

So, yeah, I guess I support trying to increase unity viability, because doing so will inevitably increase unit variety. But that's just my two cents. And pennies are near worthless these days.

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  #7  
Old November 18th, 2014, 04:26 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

Mark Rosewater (of Magic the Gathering fame) has a great article on this called "When Cards Go Bad" that you can read HERE. It's sort of my go-to in these discussions; some stuff is more relevant than others (the details about blind purchases and rarity levels naturally), but all in all there's a lot you can apply. And I see Ixe mentioned him before me.

It's essentially my thought on the subject. The parts that stand out are "Diversity of Power Rewards the More Skilled Player" and "Different Cards Appeal to Different Players." For the first, if every figure is viable, then every army is viable; thus, anyone who's competent at building an army will be on an even playing field. If certain units and builds are better than others, then army building itself becomes an important part of the game, and another skill necessary for high-level play.

Furthermore, it's okay for cards to suck, as long as they're interesting. I love sucky units. Sometimes I want to play with the Sacred Band instead of the Romans because, hey, today I'm feeling Greek. The Marro Drudge are super cool looking, so yeah, I'll give them a spin. And even if 90% of the time, Deathwalker 7000 is a waste of points, sometimes it's really cool to pull off a suicide bombing with him. Sometimes it's fun to play low-stakes games and include units that aren't that good.

The issue is when a unit is released that is neither fun to play, fun in concept, or viable. I don't think VC has released a single unit that fits that description yet.

EDIT: Oh, and it should be noted, the ability of discovery is an important part of army building. I think, as more "official" customs are released, more support for the "non-viable" units will naturally arise, unplanned. As more powers offer new interactions, older units will pop back into relevance. That's just the nature of the beast. No reason to force it.
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  #8  
Old November 18th, 2014, 06:31 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

FWIW here's the list of all units that were not used in online play from Season 8 through season 16. Some were used in earlier seasons (I know I played against VBDs once) but it would take some effort to collect that data.

Code:
0	Feral Troll
0	Marro Drudge
0	Retiarius
0	Roman Archers
0	Runa
0	Sahuagin Raider
0	Sir Dupuis
0	Sonlen
0	Torin
0	Varkaanan Blade Dancers [VC]]
Here's the complete list for the curious. You will notice that some of the powerhouse units still show up a lot (Raelin most obviously), but other cheese is heavily suppressed by the formats we play (very little 4th Mass, relatively little Q9 or stingers). Filler units (Anything decent that's under 60 points) and relatively inexpensive unique ranged support (Krav, Marro Warriors, Guilty, the rapidly rising B-11s) will always show up a lot.

Code:
83	Isamu
56	Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [RotV]
53	Marcu Esenwein
41	Krav Maga Agents
35	Otonashi
31	Marro Warriors
28	Cyprien Esenwein
26	Guilty McCreech
26	Knights of Weston
25	Deathreavers
22	Kaemon Awa
22	Sonya Esenwein
21	Greenscale Warriors
21	Phantom Knights
19	Kira Jax [VC]
19	Me-Burq-Sa
18	Axegrinders of Burning Forge
18	B-11 Resistance Corps [VC]
18	Eldgrim the Viking Champion
18	Marcus Decimus Gallus
16	10th Regiment of Foot
16	Airborne Elite
15	Agent Skahen
15	Finn the Viking Champion
15	Kursus [VC]
15	Siiv [VC]
14	Sir Gilbert
14	Theracus
14	Zetacron
13	Aubrien Archers
13	Goblin Cutters
13	Heirloom
13	Krug
13	Major Q10
13	Major Q9
13	Marrden Hounds
13	Marro Dividers
13	Nhah Scirh Cultists [VC]
13	Nilfheim
13	Venoc Warlord
13	Zombies of Morindan
12	Arrow Gruts
12	Black Wyrmling
12	Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [SotM]
12	Roman Legionnaires
12	Swog Rider
11	Cathar Spearmen [VC]
11	Dumutef Guard
11	Marro Stingers
11	Mogrimm Forgehammer
11	Nakita Agents
11	Tagawa Samurai
10	Augamo [VC]
10	Braxas
10	Dreadgul Raiders [VC]
10	Fen Hydra
10	Fyorlag Spiders
10	Havech Eradicators [VC]
10	Hoplitron [VC]
10	Minions of Utgar
10	Quahon [VC]
10	Skeletons of Annellintia [VC]
10	Su-Bak-Na
10	Syvarris
10	Varkaanan Greyspears [VC]
10	Varkaanan Swiftfangs [VC]
9	Armoc Vipers
9	Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
9	Brave Arrow
9	Heavy Gruts
9	James Murphy
9	Marrden Nagrubs
9	Moltenclaw
9	Ninjas of the Northern Wind
9	Thorgrim the Viking Champion
9	Van Nessing [VC]
9	Warden 816
9	Warriors of Ashra
8	Agent Carr
8	Air Elemental
8	Bahadur [VC]
8	Blastatrons
8	Count Raymond [VC]
8	Death Chasers of Thesk
8	Drow Chainfighter
8	Microcorp Troopers [VC]
8	Migol Ironwill
8	Nicholas Esenwein [VC]
8	Red Wyrmling
8	Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
8	Varkaanan Darkclaws [VC]
8	Varkaanan Quickblades [VC]
7	Alastair MacDirk
7	Beakface Sneaks [VC]
7	Brunak
7	Command Courier [VC]
7	Deathcommander Mark 3 [VC]
7	Fire Elemental
7	Grimnak
7	Jotun
7	Kurrok the Elementalist
7	Laglor
7	M-43 Resistance Fighters [VC]
7	Mind Flayer Mastermind
7	Mohican River Tribe
7	Mok [VC]
7	Ne-Gok-Sa
7	Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
7	Omnicron Repulsors
7	Quorik Warwitch [VC]
7	Valguard
7	Wolves of Badru
7	Zelrig
7	Zettian Infantry [VC]
7	Zombie Hulk [VC]
6	4th Massachusetts Line
6	Acolarh
6	Arkmer
6	Crixus
6	Deadeye Dan
6	Death Knights of Valkrill
6	Deathstrike Thrall [VC]
6	Earth Elemental
6	Eltahale
6	Gladiatrons
6	Haduc [VC]
6	Iskra Esenwein
6	Izumi Samurai
6	Kantono Daishi [VC]
6	Kumiko
6	Mezzodemon Warmongers
6	Morgoloth [VC]
6	Moriko
6	Obsidian Guards
6	Sgt. Drake Alexander [SotM]
6	Shaolin Monks
6	Sir Denrick
6	Sir Orrick [VC]
6	Tarn Viking Warriors
6	Tor-Kul-Na
6	Warforged Soldiers
5	Arktos [VC]
5	Blue Wyrmling
5	Capt. John Varan [VC]
5	Capuan Gladiators
5	Charos
5	Darrak Ambershard
5	Horned Skull Brutes
5	Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan
5	MacDirk Warriors
5	Major X17
5	Marro Drones
5	Ornak
5	Sgt. Drake Alexander [RotV]
5	Shurrak
5	Skull Demon [VC]
5	Tul-Bak-Ra
5	Water Elemental
5	Werewolf Lord
4	Azurite Warlord [VC]
4	Concan the Kyrie Warrior
4	Cxurg'gyath [VC]
4	Deathwalker 9000
4	Estivara
4	Granite Guardians
4	Grigor & Rogirg [VC]
4	Ice Troll Berserker
4	Iron Golem
4	Khosumet the Darklord
4	Kyntela Gwyn
4	Manauvi [VC]
4	Myrddin [VC]
4	Ogre Pulverizer
4	Omnicron Snipers
4	Parmenio
4	Preyblood Thrall [VC]
4	Protectors of Ullar
4	Racheim [VC]
4	Rechets of Bogdan
4	Sacred Band
4	Samuel Brown
4	Spartacus
4	Sujoah
4	Tomb Skeletons [VC]
4	Ulginesh
4	Venoc Vipers
4	Vulcanmech Incendiborgs [VC]
4	White Wyrmling
4	Zogross Hardscale [VC]
3	Anubian Wolves
3	Arashara Goshiri [VC]
3	Ashigaru Harquebus
3	Ashigaru Yari
3	Einar Imperium
3	Elite Onyx Vipers
3	Emirroon
3	Empress Kiova
3	Gorillinators
3	Grok Riders
3	Kozuke Samurai
3	Marro Hive
3	Martial La Hire [VC]
3	Master of the Hunt
3	Master Win Chiu Woo
3	Microcorp Agents
3	Mimring
3	Othkurik The Black Dragon
3	Rhogar Dragonspine
3	Sentinels of Jandar
3	Shades of Bleakwoode
3	Tagawa Samurai Archers
3	Tomoe Gozen [VC]
3	Tornak
3	Ulfrid Hornwrangler [VC]
3	Wo-Sa-Ga
3	Wyvern
3	Zaeus [VC]
2	Blade Gruts
2	Brimstone [VC]
2	Chardris
2	Deathstalkers
2	Deathwalker 7000
2	Deathwalker 8000
2	Eilan Sidhe [VC]
2	Elaria the Pale [VC]
2	Gurei-Oni
2	Jorhdawn
2	Kato Katsuro
2	Kee-Mo-Shi
2	Ogre Warhulk
2	Omegacron [VC]
2	Quasatch Hunters
2	Sharwin Wildborn
2	Shiori
2	Sudema
2	Tandros Kreel
2	Tyrian the Kyrie Warrior [VC]
1	Ana Karithon
1	Brandis Skyhunter
1	Deepwyrm Drow
1	Dund
1	Dzu-Teh
1	Erevan Sunshadow
1	Evar Scarcarver
1	Frost Giant of Morh
1	Greater Ice Elemental
1	Hatamoto Taro
1	Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
1	Marro Gnids [VC]
1	Mika Connour
1	Morsbane
1	Pelloth
1	Priscus [VC]
1	Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
1	Siege
1	Sir Hawthorne
1	Templar Cavalry
1	Zettian Guards
0	Feral Troll
0	Marro Drudge
0	Retiarius
0	Roman Archers
0	Runa
0	Sahuagin Raider
0	Sir Dupuis
0	Sonlen
0	Torin
0	Varkaanan Blade Dancers [VC]

Last edited by dok; November 18th, 2014 at 06:36 PM. Reason: Isamu is like a tumor
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  #9  
Old November 18th, 2014, 06:40 PM
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Re: Unit Viability

That proves it! The Roman Archers suck!

My customs.
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Last edited by flameslayer93; November 18th, 2014 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Not really, they just aren't for modern play
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Old November 19th, 2014, 12:43 AM
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Re: Unit Viability

Oooh! I do love to see stats and trends. I really have to commend the OHS organizers for how the formats do encourage novel play and units. I'm also proud to say that I was the one that brought in Hatamoto Taro and did quite poorly because of it . I'm still surprised to see the diversity of units and I think some of that can probably be chalked up general probability given the number of events and players. Even a uniform probability distribution could come up short on some figures if you roll it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
EDIT: Oh, and it should be noted, the ability of discovery is an important part of army building. I think, as more "official" customs are released, more support for the "non-viable" units will naturally arise, unplanned. As more powers offer new interactions, older units will pop back into relevance. That's just the nature of the beast. No reason to force it.
These are also some very good points and it is important to maintain in the game.

However, let's take a historical approach and consider the Gladiator faction for a moment. When they were first released, it was three lone heroes built around Spartacus. At that point, it would have been perfectly reasonable to believe that the gladiators would always just be lone heroes with a synergy built around the highly priced Spartacus. Thematically, lone hero gladiators made a fair bit of sense since they weren't all that organized even at the height of their rebellion and the iconic theme of gladiator matches is often 1 on 1. Then a bonding squad was released that put the steam roller as viable option and elevated the formerly bad Spartacus up to being the lynchpin of the army.

Given scenarios like this, I have trouble seeing how we can definitively say that it cannot or should not happen for other groups. I certainly don't think it should happen for everyone or that things need to be rushed and forced, but denying some units on that criteria alone feels a little closed off to me.
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  #11  
Old November 19th, 2014, 12:51 AM
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Re: Unit Viability

FWIW, Spartacus, et al, actually were tested with the Capuans before they were released. But for whatever reason it took a long time for the squad to follow.
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Old November 20th, 2014, 01:15 AM
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William099 William099 is offline
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Re: Unit Viability

Code:
0    Feral Troll

0    Marro Drudge

0    Retiarius

0    Roman Archers

0    Runa

0    Sahuagin Raider

0    Sir Dupuis

0    Sonlen

0    Torin

0    Varkaanan Blade Dancers [VC]]

Now I just want to include some of these guys in my next tourney season!

Customs here
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William099 is Lord of Blades...
in THE FRACTAL COMPLEX
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