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C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


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  #49  
Old February 19th, 2020, 12:17 AM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Red Skull and the Cube had a lot of other stuff compounding the wound transfer thing. I personally don't find it crazy concerning, and there are plenty of dials to turn if need be.


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  #50  
Old February 19th, 2020, 12:33 AM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

It's basically Wolverine's healing factor combined with an autowound each turn (if he's wounded), which is really strong (especially with 6 defense). I'd guess it'd need to be taken down a notch somewhere to keep him at a reasonable point cost. I think you lose a bit of the theme too, there's nothing really "mad" about a power like that.

One idea I had: what about making Madness Vest automatic, but tying it to one of his combat die results from the first power? So he can only use it if you have one of those options (whichever you choose to go with).
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  #51  
Old February 19th, 2020, 02:21 AM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch-vile View Post
It's basically Wolverine's healing factor combined with an autowound each turn (if he's wounded), which is really strong (especially with 6 defense). I'd guess it'd need to be taken down a notch somewhere to keep him at a reasonable point cost.
I'm guessing tying it to a D20 roll would help a lot. There are units that can heal better than him, and there are units that can deal autowounds better than him. I think the main strength would be consistency, and adding a D20 roll (like 7+ or whatever) could help a lot.
Quote:
I think you lose a bit of the theme too, there's nothing really "mad" about a power like that.
I did immediately feel like the design needs a bit less RNG and just a tad more consistency. Still totally interested in that chaotic feel, but that's what Changing Man and Madness Stream are for, hopefully.
Quote:
One idea I had: what about making Madness Vest automatic, but tying it to one of his combat die results from the first power? So he can only use it if you have one of those options (whichever you choose to go with).
Cool idea, but I think making his key power only usable at a maximum 50% of the time sounds painful on a gameplay level.
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  #52  
Old February 19th, 2020, 03:17 PM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

I'd caution against anything that works too similar to Raven's wound transfer, but open to any army build.
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  #53  
Old February 19th, 2020, 03:22 PM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

I guess I assumed your intent was to make this guy super crazy random. I don't know the character at all so it's hard to tell. Your suggested change it probably one of the best and most consistent damage-dealing / healing powers, which doesn't seem to fit that original intent.
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  #54  
Old February 19th, 2020, 04:00 PM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Okay so I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you want here and I can't understand it, so lets slow down and think...

What is your goal for this design? What do you want him to do? How do you want him to feel? Like I said I thought you wanted him to be totally chaotic and that's suddenly not the direction anymore. I don't know the character which doesn't help, but I'm but necessarily seeing the issues with the original draft.

Also as a veteran weird-character designer, having a bio ready to go while posting the design really helps those who don't know them get the feel a bit quicker.
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  #55  
Old February 19th, 2020, 05:08 PM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Pyre View Post
Okay so I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you want here and I can't understand it, so lets slow down and think...

What is your goal for this design? What do you want him to do? How do you want him to feel? Like I said I thought you wanted him to be totally chaotic and that's suddenly not the direction anymore. I don't know the character which doesn't help, but I'm but necessarily seeing the issues with the original draft.

Also as a veteran weird-character designer, having a bio ready to go while posting the design really helps those who don't know them get the feel a bit quicker.
This new draft (v3 essentially) is way closer to my original vision that I had at the start of the thread, with the draft currently in the SP being the oddball.

I guess for me it's about walking the line between crazy wacky stuff and actually having a playable character. He's a weird standalone unit with limited turn efficiency options. So I want to make sure that if you take a turn with him, you're not just flailing around and hurting yourself. Changing Man feels the perfect level of fun and chaotic at the moment. Not only is it always suspenseful to see what result you're gonna get, but it can also work as both encouragement and discouragement to use Madness Vest to draw wounds off of allies.

I think another problem (and one I ran into while initially planning him in the JLD workshop) is that making him play right is less about capturing a specific powerset, and more about feel IMO. There's a very specific Shade vibe/aesthetic that's really hard to capture in a bio or description of powers. I tried my hand at a bio though, in the OP.

If I had to jot down a few key points, it'd be something like;
-Shade should feel transcendental/weird. He should be doing oddball stuff.
-There should definitely be a certain level of chaos involved.
-Shade isn't really a traditional attacker. Sure, he can/does just shoot big energy blasts, but the book usually focuses less on traditional violence like that. So anything that de-emphasizes the normal attacking/defending mechanics is good in my book.
-The world around Shade tends to operate less on the rules of logic, and more on the rules of poetry and madness. The nature of his power basically makes everything into Wonderland.
-Shade isn't usually crazy or mad (though he does have his moments), he's just a bit emotionally immature and moody.
-It's a plot point that Shade often can't undo damage the Madness has done, especially a specific death. So anything that involves healing or something similar feels wrong to me. Moving wounds around is okay in my book, removing them is not.

Idea: What about tying Madness Vest to a D20 roll, then having the Skull option on Changing Man subtract from that roll? That would make it chaotic and also more limited.

Sorry for the wall of text.
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  #56  
Old February 19th, 2020, 05:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Quick additional brainstorm before work. The idea I posted above, but if you roll a 1, the closest figure you control to Shade receives a wound. That would add a thematic downside and it would make the whole thing feel more Madness to me.
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  #57  
Old February 19th, 2020, 08:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Can you write that up? Might make it easier to fully follow your train of thought.

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  #58  
Old February 20th, 2020, 08:00 AM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Yeah, of course. Was just in a rush last night.
Quote:
NAME = SHADE THE CHANGING MAN
SECRET IDENTITY = RAC SHADE

SPECIES = METAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = POET
PERSONALITY = MERCURIAL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 6

POINTS = ???


CHANGING MAN
At the start of the game, roll a combat die and place it on this card. Any time Shade receives one or more wounds, re-roll the die. While the result is:
  • a skull, subtract 1 from Shade's attack and defense, and 4 from his roll for the Madness Vest power.
  • a shield, all opponent's figures are considered friendly to Shade.
  • a blank, the most wounds Shade can take from an attack is one.

MADNESS VEST 7
Instead of attacking with Shade, you may choose a figure within 4 clear sight spaces and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1 or lower, the nearest friendly figure to Shade receives a wound. If you roll 7 or higher, either inflict a wound on Shade and remove a wound from the other figure's Army Card or remove a wound from Shade's Army Card and inflict a wound on the other figure.
Dropping Madness Stream again just because of the added complexity on the other two. The numbers are totally variable, just some random ones I pulled from my head. It will continue to make him someone who is annoying in endgame situations (where the downside matters less) but it'll weaken him overall so I think that's okay.

EDIT: My other idea would be something like this;
Spoiler Alert!

Last edited by MrNobody; February 20th, 2020 at 12:24 PM.
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  #59  
Old February 20th, 2020, 08:25 AM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Looks good. I'm thinking 190ish from the calculator.

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  #60  
Old February 20th, 2020, 08:37 AM
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Re: The Book of Shade the Changing Man (Initial Playtesting)

Anywhere from like 180-250 is cool with me really. He goes up in power levels a lot as the years go on.
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