Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

However, Shadow Master absolutely neeeds some OM reveal lingo attached to it. So I guess I’d technically down vote the primary submission (and thus all of them) over that until it was fixed, though that’s an easy one since you can just borrow the wording from Kurrok.

Dangit...this was actually an edit I already had put down to make but I missed it when updating the card before posting. I'll get it updated.

EDIT: Updated.

[caps]

I like the look of this faction. I agree with Soundwarp's OM reveal point (thanks for addressing it), and I'm concerned about the Soul Manipulation ability as well (although by itself it is not an automatic no). It is interesting to ponder this faction as part of Vydar rather than Utgar.

My biggest concerns with this faction are A) the defense of 4 on the first two shadows--it seems both unjustified by the mini and unrestrained. And B) the attack of 4 on Xundar's special. It seems too consistent of a choice where it should have more risk, I don't like how strong it is in the endgame, and it also feels very unrestrained.

EDIT: I also overlooked the 7 move on the demon. Seems unnecessarily high--very few figures have that much movement.

Altogether, I am a to review but I think the faction is very close, and I like it enough that I would probably buy all of the figures.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

It is interesting to ponder this faction as part of Vydar rather than Utgar.

That's a really interesting thought, definitely worth considering.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

A) the defense of 4 on the first two shadows--it seems both unjustified by the mini and unrestrained.

@Sir Heroscape any chance you could post some comparison pics of all the shadows? Seeing their size may put some of these stats more in perspective (because that dog is big).
I can see a defense of 4 as justified like it is for the elementals -- fire and water both have 4 defense, which I've always attributed to an amount of intangibility they have for being an element without having a power to expressly state that.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

B) the attack of 4 on Xundar's special. It seems too consistent of a choice where it should have more risk, I don't like how strong it is in the endgame, and it also feels very unrestrained.

I agree on this one, killing and resummoning a figure in one go is strong enough that there should be a good amount of risk for that reward.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

I can see a defense of 4 as justified like it is for the elementals -- fire and water both have 4 defense, which I've always attributed to an amount of intangibility they have for being an element without having a power to expressly state that..

+1 for this. Have you ever tried stabbing water? It’s very ineffective.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

@Sir Heroscape any chance you could post some comparison pics of all the shadows? Seeing their size may put some of these stats more in perspective (because that dog is big).

I can see a defense of 4 as justified like it is for the elementals -- fire and water both have 4 defense, which I've always attributed to an amount of intangibility they have for being an element without having a power to expressly state that.

’d i was about to say the same thing. By looking at the elementals, nothing in the minis says big baddie with 4 def. But if it is because of the intangibility, then I would argue the same for these shadows who are being conjured by the sorcerer.

But yes, as for comparison pictures, I’ll have to get those up later today since I’m at work phone posting. And yes, the dog is BIG and muscular, definitely justified for 4 def.

[superfrog]

I'll wait on those comparison shots to vote.

I'll just note the few things I'm concerned by in the meantime:

• The demon and the hound seem very similar to me.
• The Binder's class should be different than Binder, to match the others.
• What makes the Binder Wild while all of the others are Terrifying?
• Xundar's special attack might fit the card better at 3 dice. It's just miles better than his normal at this point.

[Scytale]

First off, I'm really excited to see a pseudo-squad mini-faction show up here.

I will wait for the pics to cast my vote, but I don't have the same hangups about 4 Defense that the others do. Stats are pretty squishy in Heroscape, and if it's justified by the design I'm ok with it. If it was 5 Defense or higher I'd have issues, but a difference of 3 or 4 Defense for magical shadow creatures doesn't bother me.

Shadow Cast having an attack of 4 is a poor choice. It takes away the potentially interesting choice of normal vs special attack, and it makes the resurrection fairly likely and double-good (kill a figure and get one back). Compare that to poor Kurrok. If the shadows are individually costly, sure, but it looks like the faction is designed to survive mostly on the starting units, not rely on resurrections.

Triple Tentacle Grabs still worry me, but I'm willing to give it a go. Triple Soul Manipulations, doesn't concern me so much; it's not only exceedingly unlikely but it's also only temporary control. I do think the Wraiths are too good stat-wise, though. The takeover potential is their real threat; giving them an attack of 3 as compensation seems unnecessarily good. There isn't much disadvantage to piling on the Wraiths.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Shadow Cast having an attack of 4 is a poor choice. It takes away the potentially interesting choice of normal vs special attack, and it makes the resurrection fairly likely and double-good (kill a figure and get one back). Compare that to poor Kurrok. If the shadows are individually costly, sure, but it looks like the faction is designed to survive mostly on the starting units, not rely on resurrections.

I strongly disagree here. Even with a lower attack, there’s no reason you would ever want to use the normal attack when you have the ability to kill with the special and bring back a Shadow, even if it were less dice. Kurrok has the luxury of running away and getting a 50% summon. He is much more reliable than having to attack a figure within 5 spaces, and that figure rolling defense dice, and putting the “commander” at risk within reach of an opponent. Though I will say the reward is,yes, better. I’ve tested these guys enough to know that usually when you’re using the special it’s becaise you’re in trouble. Shadow activations for this faction are extremely important and if you use the turn instead with Xundar you’re putting yourself at a lot of risk by not using shadows and getting Xundar within reach of the opponent because of the 5 range. Honestly, even with 4 attack, there’s no guarantee. With 3 attack you’d be running too much risk. I’d only move it to 3 if I were to change the range to 6, but I didn’t like that because that would just encourage kiting in the end game even more. But 3 Att and 5 Range just isn’t good enough to be effective (speaking from ~20 playtests with these guys). In fact, a good comparison is Nicholas. I’d say he’s VERY effective, especially in the end game when he can isolate figures using move 7 AND potentially bring back up to 2 Thralls in 1 turn...all while rolling 4 attack die (likely 5 from height). Not to mention Nicholas gets a triple wammy by killing a figure, bringing back a Thrall AND healing a wound. I’m not saying I won’t budge, but I feel from my experience this is where he should be in order to operate the way he’s meant to, and he’s not nearly as scary as ya’ll may think.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Even with a lower attack, there’s no reason you would ever want to use the normal attack when you have the ability to kill with the special and bring back a Shadow, even if it were less dice.

On that I'll disagree. Attacking a multi-life hero? I'd rather go for some extra hits than a long shot for a resurrect. Endgame it's often more important to knock out the last remaining figures than to try to bring back your own. Of course, you'd only ever have the choice with height, so even these unusual situations become less likely to want to use the normal attack.

If resurrecting is part of the strategy and design of the faction, I agree with you overall. If it really is a last-ditch effort sort of thing, then it needn't be reliable, or rather shouldn't be.

Still, it's not a big enough sticking point for me. I can only guess at how it plays looking at the cards and I'm willing to give it a shot, though it has to convince me.

[superfrog]

Considering that 4 of the 5 judges to comment so far have mentioned 4 attack on the special as a potential sticking point, I'd encourage you to consider alternatives.

You might even consider making the shadow-resurrect trigger on normal attacks, and bumping his range to 5.

Though I think Scy is right that if you see bringing the shadows back as a big part of the faction, it might be justified as-is. If it's last-ditchy, there's no need for it to be so good. (And I think it is pretty last-ditchy, because why would you pass up 3 attacks of 4 for one attack of 4?)

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by superfrog

You might even consider making the shadow-resurrect trigger on normal attacks, and bumping his range to 5.

Hmmm...I actually like that a lot. Simply because it allows opportunity for him to get 4 attack but only when he gains height, which then requires him to relocate or get into position for the best spot (usually). It's not a shoe-in base 4 attack, but can be if you position him right. It would also simplify the design I feel. I'll have to think on that.

Also, I should be posting the comparison images soon.

[Sir Heroscape]

Pictures for reference.