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Architects of the Realms of Valhalla Discussion and presentation of the maps approved by the ARV.


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  #169  
Old March 19th, 2018, 08:13 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

I really do understand (and I'm sorry if I came off as overly offended or belligerent or anything). I'm not a mapmaker first and foremost, so I'm sure there's things I've missed here or there. I just was feeling like my mapmaking improved significantly between last contest and this one, but my contest standing went way down.

It's disappointing, especially because I got quite good feedback on both of my submissions.

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  #170  
Old March 19th, 2018, 09:24 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I really do understand (and I'm sorry if I came off as overly offended or belligerent or anything). I'm not a mapmaker first and foremost, so I'm sure there's things I've missed here or there. I just was feeling like my mapmaking improved significantly between last contest and this one, but my contest standing went way down.

It's disappointing, especially because I got quite good feedback on both of my submissions.
I agree with Nomad's comments. Also understand we're judging maps BEFORE playtesting them so we have to theorize how games will go based off of our own experience with maps as well as certain armies that can break maps. Sometimes our original estimation of a maps potential miss-fires because of actual gameplay that reveals certain strategies or competitive armies that end up in-balancing the competitiveness of the map. I agree these latest submissions were your strongest...and the Top 10 decision was not made without some back and forth on some of the maps. But with such great entries...some good maps get left out. It's also important to realize that the Top 10 is relative to the other map submissions. For example, if we only had 12 entries...inevitably the Top 10 would include some maps that clearly might have some issues, but with 18 entries and some very strong builds, that left some good maps out.
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  #171  
Old March 20th, 2018, 02:59 AM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Alright, finally have a few minutes to throw in some comments here.
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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I must say I'm disappointed that neither of my maps made the top 10. I think several of the maps in the top 10 are very good, but both of my maps are miles better than my last submission, Cracked, which finished rather well in the last competition.

Anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post


Bloodred River Narrows build instructions. It uses 1 RoTV, 1 RttFF, and 1 TT, with Valda and Wannok.

From the Compendium:
Unusually warm currents from Volcarren flow through the Bloodred River, separating the frozen wasteland from the temperate forest as if a line were drawn between them. On one side: glaciers. On the other side: forests. The warriors who inhabit the territories on both sides of the bridge have been feuding over the land that surrounds the Bloodred River for centuries. Many battles are so fierce that the river becomes a dark red channel that flows back into the sea, warning others to stay away. Every year the Armies get larger and the battles more fierce. It seems that the Bloodred River shall forever live up to its name. The Bloodred River never freezes completely. Crossing the river over the thin ice is dangerous but necessary, as an attack from the bridge is always met with an equally fierce defense. The territories owned by the feuding warriors surrounding the Bloodred River is constantly changing; but it is the bridge that is the symbolic prize possession of battle, even though it serves no useful purpose other than bragging rights and exaggerated stories at the end of battle.
I'd like to submit this for consideration. I've found it to play very well in my games on it.
I like the look of this one. Not that I'm 100% sure that it would be completely free of problems, but enough that I think it would provide good games and would test it. There were concerns from the other judges about moving from side to side and about development from the start zone due to the line of low ice, but I'll avoid playing too much telephone and let them bring up their concerns for you.
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Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I'd just like to know how Shadows over Bleakwoode didn't make it. I know you guys were saying there were a lot of strong submissions so was it a matter of no room in the inn or was there a design flaw? Thanks guys!
The matter of no room in the inn was definitely big this go around - there were a lot of maps that scored really close to the lowest map in the Top 10. The smallest thing could have been the deciding factor between making the Top 10 or not. I was really excited about your map too, and it's another I'd like to play on. I do still have some small concerns about it the more I look at it - mostly that the Glyphs are on pretty strong positions on the edge which could provide for some unfun your-side-my-side endgame scenarios. But I've played similar maps that have worked out okay. My other main concern was the Raelin perches - one on each side of the map so she can run out from either corner. I'm sure the other judges can provide more feedback about their concerns as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaesShurrig View Post
I'd like to submit my map, Forgotten Forest Road for workshopping! I like this map and would really like to see it deemed as tournament worthy; the few times I played on it made it seem pretty balanced to me, but I'd like some more feedback on what I should do to make it more competitive.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FDy...ew?usp=sharing
Where this one fell short for me (in comparison with the others, which is really important - for better or for worse deciding the Top 10 is a game of comparisons) was mainly the narrowness of the map, which isn't terrible here, but was just enough that I was concerned about gameplay a bit (the more narrow a map is the less strategy comes into play, generally, and your map is toeing that border, though I can't be sure which side it's on without actually playing it). Another thing I missed when you were workshopping it pre-contest was that the Move glyph is 6 flying spaces away from the start zone, which gives an edge to just enough figures to make it concerning (dragons in particular). Also, the more I looked at it, the more I wish there was just a bit more height variation in the middle - maybe by taking the single-hex rocks off of the three-hex grass pieces and throwing them in there to have some height variety. And, again, I'm sure the other judges can expand on this more.

Thanks for your submissions, guys, and to all else who had maps that didn't make the Top 10. I realize it can be disappointing to have your map not make it, and I'd imagine even more so after a lot of you put forth a lot of good time and energy into workshopping it with us beforehand. Unfortunately, so much good workshopping was going on that a lot of good maps didn't make it. (In fact, 4 of my personal Top 10 maps didn't make the cut in the end - I think it was similar for other judges.) And that's nothing new. Heck, I've used maps that didn't make the Top 10 in tournaments before and I'm sure I'll do it again, especially after this round. If you want your map to get tested, keep working with us here and it will work out. And again, thanks for your support in keeping this competition alive!
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  #172  
Old March 27th, 2018, 12:36 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaesShurrig View Post
I'd like to submit my map, Forgotten Forest Road for workshopping! I like this map and would really like to see it deemed as tournament worthy; the few times I played on it made it seem pretty balanced to me, but I'd like some more feedback on what I should do to make it more competitive.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FDy...ew?usp=sharing
Where this one fell short for me (in comparison with the others, which is really important - for better or for worse deciding the Top 10 is a game of comparisons) was mainly the narrowness of the map, which isn't terrible here, but was just enough that I was concerned about gameplay a bit (the more narrow a map is the less strategy comes into play, generally, and your map is toeing that border, though I can't be sure which side it's on without actually playing it). Another thing I missed when you were workshopping it pre-contest was that the Move glyph is 6 flying spaces away from the start zone, which gives an edge to just enough figures to make it concerning (dragons in particular). Also, the more I looked at it, the more I wish there was just a bit more height variation in the middle - maybe by taking the single-hex rocks off of the three-hex grass pieces and throwing them in there to have some height variety. And, again, I'm sure the other judges can expand on this more.
Thanks for the feedback, I had the same concern with the move glyph as well. I think I may change the move glyph to initiative, but I'm excited to hear back from the other judges

Maybe I should put something useful down here
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  #173  
Old March 27th, 2018, 05:29 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Sorry I never responded. My really only main qualm with this map was that it seemed pretty aesthetically plain, and somewhat strategically 1-dimensional. I like the idea of a double wide road that will catapult half your army into the fray during round 1...but that’s really the most unique thing about this map and I didn’t find that it measured up to the other maps in that regard.
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  #174  
Old March 27th, 2018, 05:37 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Sorry for the delay - to review Nomad's updated version of Thaeberian Wellsprings.
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  #175  
Old March 27th, 2018, 07:54 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

The resubmission of Thaeberian Wellsprings has received enough votes and will be under review and playtested for tournament worthiness.
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  #176  
Old March 27th, 2018, 11:04 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Quick question. When we did the wellspring contest, I submitted a map that kind of got pushed to the wayside so it didnt officially have a chance to win the prize, but since didnt even get a second look. Just curious about that since we've since changed our guidlines. I thought it was a decent map that looked pretty. If you guys dont want revisit it that's ok.
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  #177  
Old March 29th, 2018, 10:29 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

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Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Quick question. When we did the wellspring contest, I submitted a map that kind of got pushed to the wayside so it didnt officially have a chance to win the prize, but since didnt even get a second look. Just curious about that since we've since changed our guidlines. I thought it was a decent map that looked pretty. If you guys dont want revisit it that's ok.
Huh. Thought I replied to this. I do remember that map, though, and I'd be more than willing to take a look at it! I'm not sure what the technicalities would be (you'll have to ask @Sir Heroscape for that), but I believe you could submit it for review here.

++++++++++++++++

In other news, itís been a while, but with the excitement of the contest dying down Iíve got a couple reviews here to share.

Henge Arena by @JaesShurrig


I really dig this map. It saw a lot of good progress during its workshopping phase, and captures the arena feel in both looks and play.

The first thing you notice about this map is all of the terrain stacked in the middle. Itís a considerable hill to climb, but for the first few figures itís not too difficult to get up in there. It does slow down as the game progresses, however, as figures arenít always able to utilize their full move when trying to gain entrance into the arena itself. The balance between range and melee was pretty good - I had games going both ways. There also isnít a noticeable imbalance between swinging to the left or the right. And the map sports plenty of the fun factor. Playing on it just feels cool. I enjoyed all of my games on it for the most part.

Unfortunately, I did find some issues with it. First was the development that I mentioned. The first few figures can get out of the start zone easily, but after that it can be rough bringing in your reinforcements. This is especially true on the right side of the start zone. If some extra height can be brought in (or some existing height lowered) to make that climb a little more gradual and easy, it will help out the map a lot.

Second was the edge glyphs and their adjacent shadow spaces. Currently, theyíre just a bit low in order to see much use. The glyphs are desired, yes, but when trying to cross from the road to the arena or vice versa, itís difficult to make that transition. Bringing those three spaces on each side up just one level would make a big difference in how the flow of the map works, and the flanking road areas will see more play (though they already do see a decent amount).

The real killer, though, was the Wannok glyph. Itís a great glyph to have in the middle of the arena for early skirmishes, but in the endgame it gets too powerful. If you can beat your opponent off of the high ground in the first few rounds, all you have to do is sit back on the high ground with a figure on Wannok to run out the game. The arena is so defensible that itís tough to assault it already, and even more so when Wannok puts you on a clock. It also really kills the strategy on the map with such an obvious win condition built in. I think it needs to go - maybe replaced with a Treasure Glyph to lend to the gladiator hero feel, Iíd like that.

Really loved this map, and I definitely think it will make it, but for now I vote to induct Henge Arena.

Barren Plateau by @Sir Heroscape


Barren Plateau is a very aesthetic map that nailed the theme of Wastelands of Valhalla. It feels like youíre playing on a crag of wasteland with a rift in the middle, and the asymmetry helps it feel more natural. Traveling across it is pretty easy, and you can use most if not any army on it without feeling like youíre fighting the map.

Unfortunately, this map is not free from flaws either. While testing, we found that the start zone by the small ruin has an easier time developing armies, especially onto the rock 3-hex of height. Once I noticed this and tested for that imbalance specifically, I found it to be just enough that I didnít like the disadvantage that this posed to the side with the large ruin. Itís not impossible to win with it, and you have more to hide behind, but always being on the back foot with grabbing height hurts a lot.

My other issue was how narrow the map is. While the map is good at what it does aesthetically by hiding the grass and dungeon, the small size of it makes strategy options really limited for competitive play. Basically you just jump onto your high ground and then start a dice fest in the middle, relying more on luck of the roll than on skill to win the game. Range just camps on their side while melee struggles to make it past the shadow canyon in the middle. This drove the fun factor down a lot.

Sir H did a good job with this map to make something thatís really aesthetic, and considering itís asymmetric itís fairly balanced, but just not enough for me to recommend it for competitive tournament play. I vote to induct Barren Plateau.
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  #178  
Old March 29th, 2018, 10:45 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Barren Plateau and Henge Arena have both received enough NAY votes to remove them from playtesting.
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  #179  
Old March 29th, 2018, 10:49 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

Did I use the right words and format to submit my map for reconsideration? I intended to do that, but it hasn't received any votes one way or the other.

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  #180  
Old March 29th, 2018, 10:53 PM
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Re: Workshop Thread

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Did I use the right words and format to submit my map for reconsideration? I intended to do that, but it hasn't received any votes one way or the other.
oh...hmmm...yeah it seems we perceived your post to be just looking for some feedback etc. If you are looking to resubmit it though...you should make a few changes based off of the feedback from the judges that had concerns about it, and then go ahead and post indicating a resubmission.

For me, I was willing to give this map a shot, but I know some of the other judges had some concerns and would like to see some adjustments.

EDIT: I mean I guess you could always just post it the same as the contest submission...but I imagine you'll have some judges downvote it without some of their concerns being at least considered. Feel free to proceed how you will.
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