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  #5857  
Old October 1st, 2018, 02:11 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
I disagree, you have to consider the most potent scenario and take that into account. This is too big of a concern for me and his current price. And Honestly, even at a higher price, I dont like how devastating this could be.

Giving him a double DW9000 special...

I would say No to review if I were a judge soley based on this.
You definitely have every right to disagree. I priced him on the higher end of what he's been able to accomplish in my games, but of course I did not price him assuming that he will have a perfect game every time.

Personally, I've always had some disappointing experiences with overcosted swingy units, so I don't really want to design another one to the extent of what we saw in the earlier days of the game. I still priced him over what he generally accomplishes, but I will fully admit to assuming that the opponent will also play around him.

If he does get moved along in the process, I'd encourage you to test him out for a game, though. He doesn't perform as well in the battlefield as he does on paper.

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  #5858  
Old October 1st, 2018, 02:20 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I’m mulling over the power level, but tend to agree with Kinseth here. Explosions are really powerful no matter what, because even if your opponent is playing around them, they’re generally sacrificing to do so. A double is even more potent in this regard. And I wouldn’t hesitate to use rats here because if I’m rolling enough skulls to kill a rat I’m probably rolling enough to kill my other targets, and my rat is only 10 points. Also worth considering is team games where this guy gets even better. Right now he seems like an upgrade of Kaemon for only 5 points. Edit - Also DCM3, who is 5 points more, has similar survivability with not this much damage output.

Last edited by BiggaBullfrog; October 1st, 2018 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Sorry for any typos. Phone posting is a pain ...
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  #5859  
Old October 1st, 2018, 06:33 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
You could target figures that are far away from eachother and potentially hit 20 figures(2 double spacers surrounded by figures).
A double spaced figure completely surrounded by figures is 9 total figures, so double that, and the max is 18, not 20. Just a small mistake I noticed.

What if, instead of targeting a figure, you target a specific hex. (kind of like what Fire Line does) That hex, and all hexes adjacent to it, are affected by the attack. This would lower the possible number of affected figures to 14, without drastically changing the way M.A.R.S. is played. This would make him about as powerful as the Zetian Deathwings. Actually the Deathwings roll 5 attack on their detonation attack, so they are more likely to kill, and they have flying, and they can move 7 spaces a turn in such a way that they can run 'n gun behind cover, and they are common, so you can have a lot of them. They are almost just strictly better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
I disagree, you have to consider the most potent scenario and take that into account.
Hmm......
Quote:
Deathwalker 8000

Rapid Fire Special Attack
Range 7. Attack 3.
If Deathwalkers Rapid Fire Special Attack inflicts a wound, he may attack again with his Rapid Fire Special Attack. Deathwalker may continue attacking with his Rapid Fire Special Attack until he does not inflict a wound.

C-
Astroking112 has playtested M.A.R.S. more than anyone else, and it sounds like he has not found him to be as potent as you suspect him to be. How much weight does this hold? Deathwalker 8000 has the potential to destroy everything within range, just like Laglor, and while you're right, we should take it into consideration, I feel like you're over reacting. As we all know, Deathwalker 8000 isn't A+ tier, and he's a great example of how you can't look at the best possible situation in the game, and say with certainty that it is overpowered. I have heard of games where 8000 has wiped the board, and he could certainly do that in any game he is used in, but he just doesn't. The Zettian Deathwings are a surprisingly good comparison to M.A.R.S.. They have more versatility, mobility, attack power, and for less than half the price... If they aren't OP, what makes you so sure that M.A.R.S. will be?

Incidentally, the Airborne Elite can hit 28 different figures, they can hit the same figure up to 4 times, they don't require line of sight, and they are only 50 points 110 points. Of course that's an attack of 2, rather than 3, and they have to re-roll for each set of 7 potential targets, and they can only do it once per game... I've played games where the Airborne kill 16 figures on a round 1 turn 1 drop. M.A.R.S. is slow enough that getting to a startzone early enough for anything like this to happen (unless the map is bad, and very small) is going to be pretty low. Should we be aware of that low chance? Yes. Should that have significant impact on his price? Maybe a slight impact, but no more.

Or at least, this is how I'm seeing it. I'm not a judge though, so...

Last edited by Leaf_It; October 1st, 2018 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Priced the Airborne incorrectly.
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  #5860  
Old October 1st, 2018, 09:33 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Astroking112 has playtested M.A.R.S. more than anyone else, and it sounds like he has not found him to be as potent as you suspect him to be. How much weight does this hold? Deathwalker 8000 has the potential to destroy everything within range, just like Laglor, and while you're right, we should take it into consideration, I feel like you're over reacting. As we all know, Deathwalker 8000 isn't A+ tier, and he's a great example of how you can't look at the best possible situation in the game, and say with certainty that it is overpowered. I have heard of games where 8000 has wiped the board, and he could certainly do that in any game he is used in, but he just doesn't. The Zettian Deathwings are a surprisingly good comparison to M.A.R.S.. They have more versatility, mobility, attack power, and for less than half the price... If they aren't OP, what makes you so sure that M.A.R.S. will be?

Incidentally, the Airborne Elite can hit 28 different figures, they can hit the same figure up to 4 times, they don't require line of sight, and they are only 50 points. Of course that's an attack of 2, rather than 3, and they have to re-roll for each set of 7 potential targets, and they can only do it once per game... I've played games where the Airborne kill 16 figures on a round 1 turn 1 drop. M.A.R.S. is slow enough that getting to a startzone early enough for anything like this to happen (unless the map is bad, and very small) is going to be pretty low. Should we be aware of that low chance? Yes. Should that have significant impact on his price? Maybe a slight impact, but no more.

Or at least, this is how I'm seeing it. I'm not a judge though, so...
Airborne Elite cost 110, and there is MUCH more risk involved for their Special attack on the startzone of an opposing army. Getting the drop, Exposing the AE and then having to win Init. A One-Shot special where their max attack dice is 2(vs 3).

DW8000/Laglor - Sure could they wipe a board? The Odds of rolling enough attack dice or valkyrie dice are waaay waaay lower. DW8000 also carries that 1 life chance of dying quickly on any hit.

I think this figures potency is far above these two listed. Having the ability to choose two different figures and all their surrounding hexes with a six range(He can cover most competitive heroscape boards from being in the middle.).

Thematically it also doesn't make sense to me either. The idea of missiles pounding an area means that the Cyborg has to lock in its target and the missiles come out fast and furious. Accuracy isn't thought about, it is pure decimation. The idea that the missiles hit one target, then swivel and hit another target accurately... A huge reach IMO.

I think there are some solid ideas here, I would ditch the idea of hitting two different figures and reduce it to one and focus on a way to make his Hex Busting attack unique from other attacks that also target figures and surrounding figures.



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  #5861  
Old October 1st, 2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
The idea that the missiles hit one target, then swivel and hit another target accurately... A huge reach IMO.
I call bs. It's got two giant missile pods. No reason each one couldn't shoot at a different target.

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  #5862  
Old October 1st, 2018, 10:46 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
The idea that the missiles hit one target, then swivel and hit another target accurately... A huge reach IMO.
I call bs. It's got two giant missile pods. No reason each one couldn't shoot at a different target.
I call BS on your BS.

The force of the rockets firing off, you'd have to set the MERCH up in a way to brace for it. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The MERCH would have to brace to shoot in one direction, I don't think it can brace to fire in two different directions with the forces the missiles would generate.

My opinion, but that is how I see it.

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  #5863  
Old October 1st, 2018, 11:16 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
The idea that the missiles hit one target, then swivel and hit another target accurately... A huge reach IMO.
I call bs. It's got two giant missile pods. No reason each one couldn't shoot at a different target.
I call BS on your BS.

The force of the rockets firing off, you'd have to set the MERCH up in a way to brace for it. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The MERCH would have to brace to shoot in one direction, I don't think it can brace to fire in two different directions with the forces the missiles would generate.

My opinion, but that is how I see it.
Missile launcher weapons don't necessarily need to have recoil. A gun has recoil because the force the gun pushes on the bullet is the same as the bullet pushes on the gun. For a missile, the primary forces are between the missile and its exhaust, not the launcher.

Additionally, missiles can adjust their trajectory mid-flight so even two fired on the same initial path can hit different targets.
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  #5864  
Old October 1st, 2018, 11:17 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

He seems pretty sweet, compared to Major Q10. I'm surprised that testing has him at only 125, but it seems like I often come into this thread thinking units might be underpriced. What do I know.

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  #5865  
Old October 1st, 2018, 11:22 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
Missile launcher weapons don't necessarily need to have recoil. A gun has recoil because the force the gun pushes on the bullet is the same as the bullet pushes on the gun. For a missile, the primary forces are between the missile and its exhaust, not the launcher.

Additionally, missiles can adjust their trajectory mid-flight so even two fired on the same initial path can hit different targets.
Not the impression I get based on the Mini. In the end, I am one vote should it reach the SOV/C3V review. I have made my thoughts known, I have other pressing matters to deal with now with my Heroscape time . Something about National Heroscape Day...

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  #5866  
Old October 1st, 2018, 11:59 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
He seems pretty sweet, compared to Major Q10. I'm surprised that testing has him at only 125, but it seems like I often come into this thread thinking units might be underpriced. What do I know.
Which is is funny, as most sov units seem below the power curve. That said 125 might be too low but testing will tell us. the question is if 2 explosion attacks are a stone too far. I know sofar aura attacks of 2 spaces have been controled (Viceroy and brimstone) so classic scape do limit number of targets (statistics also limits 8000 and langor anz vipers)

I want to do more math before voting.


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  #5867  
Old October 1st, 2018, 12:27 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

To me, much of the cost of DW9K is tied up in his 9 defense. If you're going up against him with attacks of 2 and 3, you're going to have a bad time. You want a counterdraft (a "can opener") with multiple attacks of 4 or a single attack of 5.

MARS looks way easier to crack, with only 3L/5D. The offensive output potential is crazy high, but it's somewhat mitigated by only 4 move and 6 range on the special. But I do worry that he outclasses DW9K in some ways.

I think Heirloom is a decent comparison: He's got a smart explosion (R5/A3) and arguably better survivability (4L/2D/auto-shield), for only 90 points. You're paying 35 points for the extra explosion (and the extra range on the normal attack, I know).

When I play with or against explosions, I rarely see more than 3 figures attacked at once. This seems like it might lend itself to 4 or maybe 5 figures in one turn, but I don't think that's all too crazy given all the setup.

Also, I edited the submission post to include the full-resolution version of the card from the gallery. Hope that's okay.

(If you can't tell, I'm pretty torn here. Still thinking).

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  #5868  
Old October 1st, 2018, 12:36 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Being a walking missle launcher, I'm not fond of the idea that M.A.R.S. can target figures in two completely different directions. Perhaps instead of targeting two figures within 6 spaces of him, which could be in opposite directions, the special attack could be limited in a single direction. If the two targets were within say two spaces of each other the effect would be something it can already achieve without the restriction but feels more on theme and covers only a max of 13 hexes. It'll make him one heck of a canyon guard but not so great at holding off a swarm from multiple angles.

The only other thematic improvement I could think of is being able to target hexes instead of figures. Since missle launchers aren't known to be very precise, it's easier to imagine M.A.R.S. aiming for a particular stretch of land rather than individual units. Having the ability read something like:
Quote:
Choose two spaces within six spaces of M.A.R.S. and within two spaces of each other. All figures occupying the chosen hexes or adjacent to the chosen hexes are affected by this SA.
I'm not sure if there is a precedent of targeting hexes for something like this so it could just be wishful hoping on my part
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