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  #109  
Old November 14th, 2011, 10:33 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

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Originally Posted by Filthy the Clown View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

200 Mindflayer x 2
150 Q10
100 Ornak
100 Cutters x 2
550, 13 spaces,
This is directed more towards your army selection, rather than the now broken confines of the Valhalla Society (welcome to the land of superior firepower, btw ).

I just don't see what 2 squads of Cutters* are going to give you. They thrive on their own deaths in order to use one of their most potent abilities, and anything with a multiple special attack is going to rip through your screen easily. If the goal is to dump an OM or two on the Cutters, don't expect 2 squads to buy you more than a couple turns' reprieve. IMHFO, you are better off running with 2 squads of rats, or even 2 squads of Gruts and Marcu for the Wannok.


I am definitely no expert, but I have used both Cutters and a Mindflayer in tournaments and have learned:
  • You need lots of Cutters to make them viable...At least 3 squads (if you are running Brutes; it worked for White Q Knight, after all, but I would say closer to 4 squads. With just two squads, your screen is going to be short-lived.
  • Mindflayers fall easily to hard-hitting heroes, and I suspect swarms as well. Now, you want to face swarms in order to remove OMs on turn 1...But don't expect your mindflayers to hold up without some sort of defensive bastion...And 2 squads of Cutter is not going to provide that.
  • There is no guarantee for enslave; you get a 20% shot, so expect it to work roughly once every 5 Mindflayer activations. I attempted 9 enslavement rolls over the course of 5 games, and hit it only twice (slightly better than average). One of those times was towards the end game, and the best that I could do was move my opponent's hero 5 spaces away and hope that I could get better positioning in order to attack. Just pray that you get to play on any lava maps in the rotation.
Well met!

I take your points. I chose the Cutters over the Deathreavers to fit the points. Deathreavers x 2/Marcu would be stronger. As to Enslave, with two Mindflayers activated by Ornak, that's 2 Enslaves out of every 5 Ornak turns. And I have my own hero (Q10) (thank you very much ) to Enslave, so that, when it kicks in, I am not Bound by my opponent's choice of heroes (or, at worst, total lack of same).
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  #110  
Old November 14th, 2011, 11:09 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

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Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
The introduction of firearms did NOT end the primacy of the "individual skill, strength, and stamina acquired after years of disciplined effort and sacrifice."
Absolutely true, of course. The difference between an elite, trained modern warrior and some schmuck with a gun is massive. However, the schmuck is still deadly. What guns did do is make the learning curve required to reach the level of "deadly at range as part of a large army" much, much less steep.

When firearms were overtaking bows as the dominant range armament in European warfare in the 1500s, it wasn't because the guns were better. If you had taken a typical English longbowman of the period and put him against the typical matchlock musketman, the longbowman would be able to fire faster, farther, and more accurately. The difference was that the longbowman had years of intensive training, while the musketman was typically a conscript with only weeks or months of training. But a bunch of 20 musketmen in tight formation, accurate or not, could deter a cavalry charge. In the end, the economics won out - it just didn't make sense for a kingdom to maintain a skilled standing army of archers when they could just maintain a collection of guns, and call up the volunteers when needed.

As an aside, this leveling of the amount of time and resources it takes to become deadly was one of the most important democratizing forces in the history of civilization. It's not an accident that peasants started getting more influence in their lives right around the same time that they started acquiring the ability to shoot the nobility with guns.
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  #111  
Old November 14th, 2011, 11:11 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

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Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
I chose the Cutters over the Deathreavers to fit the points. Deathreavers x 2/Marcu would be stronger.
The point is that Cutters, especially just two squads, are a pretty horrible substitute for Deathreavers. While the superficial similarities are obvious, cutters aren't rats and shouldn't be used the same way.
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  #112  
Old November 14th, 2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
I chose the Cutters over the Deathreavers to fit the points. Deathreavers x 2/Marcu would be stronger.
The point is that Cutters, especially just two squads, are a pretty horrible substitute for Deathreavers. While the superficial similarities are obvious, cutters aren't rats and shouldn't be used the same way.
I take your point. In fact, I seem to remember you making this point, probably to me , before. Assuming I don't want to use Deathreavers, except in tournaments, I suppose Warriors of Ashra would be stronger than Cutters. What I really wish is that I had bought some Dividers when I had the chance.

Last edited by kolakoski; November 14th, 2011 at 02:59 PM.
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  #113  
Old November 14th, 2011, 10:37 PM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
The introduction of firearms did NOT end the primacy of the "individual skill, strength, and stamina acquired after years of disciplined effort and sacrifice."
Absolutely true, of course. The difference between an elite, trained modern warrior and some schmuck with a gun is massive. However, the schmuck is still deadly. What guns did do is make the learning curve required to reach the level of "deadly at range as part of a large army" much, much less steep.

When firearms were overtaking bows as the dominant range armament in European warfare in the 1500s, it wasn't because the guns were better. If you had taken a typical English longbowman of the period and put him against the typical matchlock musketman, the longbowman would be able to fire faster, farther, and more accurately. The difference was that the longbowman had years of intensive training, while the musketman was typically a conscript with only weeks or months of training. But a bunch of 20 musketmen in tight formation, accurate or not, could deter a cavalry charge. In the end, the economics won out - it just didn't make sense for a kingdom to maintain a skilled standing army of archers when they could just maintain a collection of guns, and call up the volunteers when needed.

As an aside, this leveling of the amount of time and resources it takes to become deadly was one of the most important democratizing forces in the history of civilization. It's not an accident that peasants started getting more influence in their lives right around the same time that they started acquiring the ability to shoot the nobility with guns.
Actually, they start to become more important after the Black Death passed through. With fewer people, the work they did became more of a valuable commodity. Other than that, your analysis is pretty close. Have you read "Guns, Germs and Steel?" It's pretty much axiomatic that in a campaign of warriors vs soldiers, the soldiers will prevail eventually. Possibly not immediately, but eventually. You can always enlist or draft another goof to shoulder a gun for a few months. Every warrior you lose represents years of skill that cannot be reproduced quickly. I discovered years ago while wargaming Old West games. Tactically, the Indians can win or put up a good fight, almost every time. However, if you have to worry about resupplying your warriors with bullets and new guns, replacing losses due to casualties and making sure that the horses don't get slaughtered, run off or sick, it becomes another game altogether. They don't have a chance, which, of course, they really didn't. The warrior culture loses to the soldier culture every time.

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  #114  
Old November 15th, 2011, 08:51 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

Well met!

dok and RobWeaver precisely articulate the facts surrounding my Romantic impression. Bravo!
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  #115  
Old November 16th, 2011, 01:27 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobWeaver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT View Post
The introduction of firearms did NOT end the primacy of the "individual skill, strength, and stamina acquired after years of disciplined effort and sacrifice."
Absolutely true, of course. The difference between an elite, trained modern warrior and some schmuck with a gun is massive. However, the schmuck is still deadly. What guns did do is make the learning curve required to reach the level of "deadly at range as part of a large army" much, much less steep.

When firearms were overtaking bows as the dominant range armament in European warfare in the 1500s, it wasn't because the guns were better. If you had taken a typical English longbowman of the period and put him against the typical matchlock musketman, the longbowman would be able to fire faster, farther, and more accurately. The difference was that the longbowman had years of intensive training, while the musketman was typically a conscript with only weeks or months of training. But a bunch of 20 musketmen in tight formation, accurate or not, could deter a cavalry charge. In the end, the economics won out - it just didn't make sense for a kingdom to maintain a skilled standing army of archers when they could just maintain a collection of guns, and call up the volunteers when needed.

As an aside, this leveling of the amount of time and resources it takes to become deadly was one of the most important democratizing forces in the history of civilization. It's not an accident that peasants started getting more influence in their lives right around the same time that they started acquiring the ability to shoot the nobility with guns.
Actually, they start to become more important after the Black Death passed through. With fewer people, the work they did became more of a valuable commodity. Other than that, your analysis is pretty close. Have you read "Guns, Germs and Steel?" It's pretty much axiomatic that in a campaign of warriors vs soldiers, the soldiers will prevail eventually. Possibly not immediately, but eventually. You can always enlist or draft another goof to shoulder a gun for a few months. Every warrior you lose represents years of skill that cannot be reproduced quickly. I discovered years ago while wargaming Old West games. Tactically, the Indians can win or put up a good fight, almost every time. However, if you have to worry about resupplying your warriors with bullets and new guns, replacing losses due to casualties and making sure that the horses don't get slaughtered, run off or sick, it becomes another game altogether. They don't have a chance, which, of course, they really didn't. The warrior culture loses to the soldier culture every time.
Makes sense. +1

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  #116  
Old November 16th, 2011, 09:00 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

French & indian war = skilled warriors + skilled soldiers vs. A lot more unskilled soldiers. Wanna guess who won?
Spoiler Alert!

Last edited by lefton4ya; November 16th, 2011 at 09:06 AM.
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  #117  
Old November 16th, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

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Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
French & indian war = skilled warriors + skilled soldiers vs. A lot more unskilled soldiers. Wanna guess who won?
Spoiler Alert!
Huh? The British won that war. Decisively. The French were forced to give up all of their North American colonies.
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  #118  
Old November 16th, 2011, 12:34 PM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

Let's also remember that technology played a large role. Skill is important, but a skilled Hoopah with a tomahawk and a longbow will ALWAYS lose against an M1A1 Abrams, irrespective of the guy manning the turret.

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  #119  
Old November 16th, 2011, 12:37 PM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

Oh, and David (Lefton4ya), the folks in Quebec still speak French, but the coinage has Queen Elizabeth (English...) on it.

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  #120  
Old November 16th, 2011, 12:55 PM
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Re: The Valhalla Society

I'm ignorant - never mind.
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