Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Dad_Scaper]

You are having a major problem with reconciling the theme with the mini in this design, and you would be wise to take Wriggz's point seriously, as well. Please take it back to your own design space.

I am curious to know what you mean by "Lol, interesting," though. Would you care to expand on that? Are you chiding the SoV (and commentators like myself) for having standards that you did not meet, or do not care for?

[Shiftrex]

I said that because I didnt realize Tieflings had tails, prompted me to go look.

If I dont care for your standards that really doesnt matter. Not terribly interested with interaction of that nature. I was interacting with Scytale's post.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

I said that because I didnt realize Tieflings had tails, prompted me to go look.

If I dont care for your standards that really doesnt matter. Not terribly interested with interaction of that nature. I was interacting with Scytale's post.

I have been asked to post here, from time to time, because my standards do matter. As do the standards of the SoV judges, and the standards of the voting members of the Inner Sanctum.

Specifically, my standards matter because I will be voting on the custom you have nominated, should the SoV judges decide it's good enough to get to the point where we, in private, will also consider it. Scy's concern was that the picky voters inside the C3V were not articulating clearly enough their standards, and their analytical process, so he encouraged some of us to be more public with our feedback. That way, people nominating designs will learn something about how designs are going to be put under the microscope behind closed doors.

I do not know why you would not care for my feedback. Or my standards. After all, you are the nominator, and (presumably) you want to see your nominated design eventually pass. And I am one of the people who will (if it gets past this early stage) get to vote on it. So you *ought* to be interested in my feedback.

But, for my part, I actually don't care if you aren't interested in what I post here. I am sharing my process with the community, and it may be helpful to someone else, even if you - despite my role in the process - don't care.

[Shiftrex]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I have been asked to post here, from time to time, because my standards do matter. As do the standards of the SoV judges, and the standards of the voting members of the Inner Sanctum.

Specifically, my standards matter because I will be voting on the custom you have nominated, should the SoV judges decide it's good enough to get to the point where we, in private, will also consider it. Scy's concern was that the picky voters inside the C3V were not articulating clearly enough their standards, and their analytical process, so he encouraged some of us to be more public with our feedback. That way, people nominating designs will learn something about how designs are going to be put under the microscope behind closed doors.

I do not know why you would not care for my feedback. Or my standards. After all, you are the nominator, and (presumably) you want to see your nominated design eventually pass. And I am one of the people who will (if it gets past this early stage) get to vote on it. So you *ought* to be interested in my feedback.

But, for my part, I actually don't care if you aren't interested in what I post here. I am sharing my process with the community, and it may be helpful to someone else, even if you - despite my role in the process - don't care.

I didnt say that I dont care about your standards.

"If I dont care for your standards that really doesnt matter." This statements simply means that even if I didnt care about them or view them as personal opinions, THAT doesnt matter. You obviously provided feedback, have an opinion in the process and it's a part of projected results. It is immaterial if I agree with you or not because it isnt a discussion or a debate.

Is that more clear?

[Shiftrex]

The interaction I'm not terribly interested in, since that may be ambiguous, is that of whether I agree with your views on theme, interpretation, and art. Because I dont find it to be a useful discussion. We all have our own interpretations.

It is art afterall.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

.

It is art afterall.

And I believe this is the message I shared private ly. However there is a big difference from "hey look at my customs" and "endorse my custom as the best of the best and encourage new players to buy the mini and use it".


We all have lines that we think outline what is the best and in alignment with the current canon. C3G and HoSS are amazing, lots of personal customers are awesome, but I'll be the first to admit some of mine should never be canon.

I'm laxer on weird synergies than others but more militant on complex/power creep. Some judges are hard on existing trops while others are more competitive minded or fun factor focused. D_S has his sacred milk stool which is a great way if looking at a unit.

But above all you should love your unit and maybe enjoy the praise of those who do too. But don't begrudge those that dont.

[Shiftrex]

No begrudging at all. We definitely agree. I only try to clarify when I dont understand something because Scape is not my main source of gaming. I try to do that offline, outside of this thread unless it is a generalized or low impact change mechanically. I learn and interact best one one one, face to face.

I never project to pass first submission, just looking for the compromises that are best suited for my design.

[Captain Stupendous]

For what its worth, I really like both the mechanical design and theme of Xue Shen. Each of the three powers feel like they appropriately convey the mixed monk/demon themes.

Whirlwind Assault is a trademark "monk" power, while Crouching Goat and Hidden Star both carry a chaotic evil flavor with their encouragement of self-damaging and offensive power.

That being said, I am sympathetic to @wriggz 's observation that there is a decent amount of overlap between the three powers and that there might be room for some simplification for a more elegant design.

As far as the theme goes, I really like the choice here of a demon monk for Valkrill. As a big fan of the original monk hero cycle, I've always wondered what a Valkrill monk might look like, but dismissed it as unlikely to ever work because of the obvious disconnect between the discipline typically associated with monks, and Valkrill's chaotic evil nature.

However, I think the choice to make the species of Valkrill's monk a demon is a great way of thematically bridging the gap between that general's themes and the monk faction.

In response to @Dad_Scaper 's comment that the miniature doesn't look like a heroscape demon, I would question why we need to draw such a narrow definition of what a heroscape demon "should" look like? Heroscape species have always been fairly flexible, using the same term to refer to multiple different interpretations of a given species (Despite distinct physical differences, Badru and Varkaanan are both wolves, Zombies and Vampires are both undead, blade gruts and deathchasers are both orcs, etc.).

Sure, Xue Shen might not be a D&D demon, but that doesn't mean she can't still be a heroscape demon. As long as Xue Shen was from an appropriate planet (probably Feylund?), I don't see any reason why the scope of heroscape "demons" couldn't be expanded to include a more humanoid variety.

[Dad_Scaper]

I have no interest in the D&D demon issue. The demon (and demon worshipping) faction in Heroscape is young and has a very particular look. There is no discernible reason here to reinvent that aesthetic already, for a mini that doesn’t look like a demon from *anywhere*.

It’s easy and unimpressive to design without restraint or regard for what’s come before. Like Robert Frost said about writing poetry without rhyme or meter, it’s like “playing tennis without a net.” Go ahead and do it, but don’t ask me to participate in a round of applause.

[DanieLoche]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I have no interest in the D&D demon issue. The demon (and demon worshipping) faction in Heroscape is young and has a very particular look. There is no discernible reason here to reinvent that aesthetic already, for a mini that doesn’t look like a demon from *anywhere*.

It’s easy and unimpressive to design without restraint or regard for what’s come before. Like Robert Frost said about writing poetry without rhyme or meter, it’s like “playing tennis without a net.” Go ahead and do it, but don’t ask me to participate in a round of applause.

Hum... I might have missed something here.
From what I know (may have missed something ?), here are the current Heroscape demons :

- Mezzodemons
- Skull Demon and Morgoloth (from their look I am now wondering why "Demon" and not "Undead", but hey that's not the question)
- Corvor the Tainted One


TBH, I never really asked myself about "what a Heroscape demon looks like", and now that I see this Demon "faction" list, I still can't find an answer to this question.
... all-in-all I join Captain Stupendous point of view here, FWIW.

[quozl]

D_S has very strong visions. I encourage anyone nominating a design here to also have a very strong vision and present it well.

[caps]

Originally Posted by quozl

D_S has very strong visions. I encourage anyone nominating a design here to also have a very strong vision and present it well.

This is a great distillation of a lot of different advice to designers. "Have a very strong vision and present it well" indeed.