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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
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Read my edit for my main point here. I did not intend this to imply that this form of taking a stand is bad. Merely that I'd encourage a stand of solidarity to take a different, more positive, more active form. A stance like this can easily come off as a person saying "Yeah, you know your abuser? Who was already publicly decided as bad? I too think he is still bad!" Not a bad thing to say, given in this situation this abuser is receiving money for something. But if you think that's legitimately advocating for the victims, then you don't seem to understand advocacy. Solidarity? Yes. But advocacy is generally going to be more productive and enact more change. |
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
I just looked up what song it is. That was the one song in the movie that gave me a big "What the heck?" reaction because it SOOO did not fit the scene for me. So I'll double down my agreement of it being dumb that it is there.
Still gonna reiterate the advocacy is better than just solidarity stance here though. That takes us much farther in the end. |
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
I wasn't even talking about advocacy (which is necessary and important). I was talking about solidarity. I was talking about not letting an active injustice slide. I was talking about not supporting those who perpetuate said injustice. I was talking about the bare minimum.
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
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I'll retroactively concede some more of what I said now that I realize what specific song it is because good lord is it overplayed. I hope so much that the people have done their work and gotten to an appropriate place with it because they ain't escaping that song just because they avoid this movie. Its freaking everywhere, especially in sports. |
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
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It doesn't sound as though we were, in retrospect - it seems as though we misunderstood each other rather than actually disagreed. One thing I didn't realise is how prolific this song is - I'm now even more horrified. I dearly hope his victims are okay, and maybe some of the condemnation over this film will spill over into the the times the song's used without consideration elsewhere. That would at least be something. |
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
I must admit I’ve been pretty annoyed by how determined the media seems to be to make this movie into a controversy, but this is a legitimate concern.
I’m always extremely hesitant with the idea of deciding what people should/shouldn’t enjoy based off a nebulous concept of “protecting” people. Freedom of speech and art are extremely important (I personally think that’s the true factor that determines the worth of a society), and all too often the idea of protecting the defenseless seems to be used just as an excuse for censorship of expression. In the original releases of Toy Story 2, there was a fake animated “blooper reel.” One of the scenes was the Stinky Pete character doing a “casting couch” sort of situation with 2 Barbie dolls. In the most recent releases of the movie, that “blooper” has been removed, and I personally think that really sucks. Not because I think it’s a particularly great gag or anything, but because a part of someone’s artistic vision was compromised. I get why Disney did it from a business perspective, and I get how seeing that scene could unearth trauma in somebody who had been in a comparable situation. I can even accept that maybe that kind of joke never belonged in a family product to begin with. But I’m deeply uncomfortable with the idea that artistic vision had to be sanitized in order to make a product somehow “less harmful.” I do think the Joker situation is less clear-cut. I can totally agree that signing off on a song by a convicted pedophile being in this movie was an utterly moronic move, and yes I can see how it’s disrespectful. I’m not the kind of absolutist who believes they should be free of all consequences of that because “free speech” means nobody can ever be held accountable for anything. If it makes you uncomfortable to pay to see the movie, I completely understand and I don’t judge you at all. But decreeing that there’s a moral imperative not to enjoy a work because that work is potentially harmful (And note the word potentially; afaik no victims have actually come forward on this matter) is a dangerous and bad idea. People need to be free to watch what they want, and they need to be free to say what they want. If we’re creating a world where people feel like they’re morally obligated to destroy anything that might be “harmful”, we’re creating a world where speech isn’t truly free anymore. |
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
Yep. I think an advanced society can and should be able to separate the art from the artist.
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout
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2) The result of absolute freedom would be absolute anarchy - at least until someone gathers enough support to impose their own will, whatever that may be. Absolute freedom could never actually work, and there is a reason that it isn't in action. There are already limits on free speech - incitement to genocide is illegal under international criminal law, for an extreme example; most developed countries have crimes against slander, libel and defamation; harassment and threats of violence are often (and rightfully) considered illegal. There's no black and white here, and the question is where to draw the line, not whether there is a line. 3) The right to free speech isn't the right to a platform. You may have the right to draw the most racist caricatures possible, but every single publication has the right to refuse to publish it, regardless of whatever claims the artist might make of them 'treading on his artistic vision' - and if they choose to publish it, then, as said before, it is the right of the public to condemn them for doing so if they so desire. To that point, the scene in Toy Story 2 being removed is actually fair enough - I haven't seen it, but if Disney considered it something they felt it best to remove to not give the wrong impression, that is their right. Do I think censorship can sometimes be silly? Yes, I do - just one example, I watch tonnes of Whose Line is It Anyway? on YouTube, including compilations of the outtakes, and sometimes I find the places they drew the line downright weird - but it was their right to do so, if they didn't feel comfortable airing it. Warner Brothers had no obligation to put that song in this film - they chose to do so, they chose that the impact it could have didn't matter to them. (A very cynical part of my brain wonders if it was a calculated move, on the basis that 'any publicity is good publicity' - they must have known of the associations, and LV said it was odd fit anyway.) I don't see how it's wrong, or censorship, to send a message saying that, no, that isn't okay, and imploring people who care about Glitter's victims not to give money to Warner Brothers (and, indeed, Glitter himself) over this as a result. 4) As an extention to that, freedom of speech doesn't equal equality either, sadly. Some people, quite simply, have more access to a platform than others, for reasons beyond the validity of their statements; usually relating to fame, money or position. You might say that protecting the defenceless might be used as an excuse for censorship, and maybe sometimes it is, but you have to remember - they are defenceless. They don't have the same voice. Whether because people won't give them the platform, or because they don't have the money to obtain a platform, or because fear or anxiety keep them quiet, not everyone has the ability to converse on an equal level. So, a 'free marketplace of ideas', without checks and balances, would just result in the popular shouting down the vulnerable. While the system may be 'freedom' on paper, in execution, it's anything but. Absolute freedom and true freedom are not the same, and true freedom can only be achieved if we have protections to keep the most vulnerable from being trodden underfoot. As such, I maintain that the best measure of a society is how it cares for its most vulnerable, rather than the level of freedom it allows - only by protecting the vulnerable can they be truly free. Last edited by Lazy Orang; October 8th, 2019 at 05:07 AM. |
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