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  #22129  
Old October 7th, 2019, 10:41 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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I agree that boycotting this film would be a good thing but it doesn't take much from me to say that as this seems to be the sort of film I detest anyway. However, I have learned that you can't force others to have the same sense of morality that you do. You can only state your reasons for doing what you do and answer any questions others might have.
No, of course you can't force anyone to have the same sense of morality that you do - but when vulnerable children are involved then perhaps persuasion takes on a greater role than it might otherwise do.


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  #22130  
Old October 7th, 2019, 10:43 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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You're absolutely wrong. It has been regularly and consistently documented that child sexual abuse has a devastating impact on a person's ability to function.
First off, please let me know what I said that would possibly misconstrue to make me think sexual abuse has no impact on people.

I never said you did.
Ah. Well, opening as strongly as that kind of implies you did. Glad we clarified though.


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You say that I'm assuming these people haven't moved past it. You're assuming that they have.
I'm assuming that adults who were harmed by someone who received a public trial may have been encouraged enough by the trial to go do the trauma work that they would likely desperately need to do because of trauma's long term affects on a person, their brain, and development.
That's still a massive assumption.
Assumption, yes. Massive? Shouldn't be considered massive given the time and research on traumas effects. But yes, people can avoid it. I clarify that later.


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You say that this might cause them to find a way to heal. You're ignoring the strong possibility that it could bring it all back and make it worse, even if they have got on with their lives.
If they are having it brought back worse, based on how trauma work tends to function, then they haven't done their work.
That borders on blaming the victim.
No its borderline factual based on how trauma work actually functions. If you have seriously done legitimate trauma work, then I would say 98 times out of 100, one loose reference and connection to your prior trauma will not bring your trauma symptoms back and in a worse fashion. Plain and simple. You can dislike that all you want, but that is the point of trauma work. Its not just symptom management, it is also typically full reprocessing of the historic even to reduce the stress response. Please don't miss the underlying point due to a statistical generalization not intended to discount the experience of a select few who do still matter as human beings.


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Sexual abuse, especially child sexual abuse, isn't something you 'get over'. It's something you find a way to live with, and this sort of thing makes it harder.
You don't just get over it. But you do heal. I've seen it. Its been documented. I take a therapeutic approach that is firmly rested in the strength and resilience of human beings. I'm not going to apologize for believing that a human being who has done their work can stand in the face of small potential reminders of their trauma and continue to function. I do not believe that I need to stand and defend people who have not asked me to. Those who do need it and do ask me? You bet I'll stand for them. I do it on a daily basis.
I've seen the other side of the coin - people who, after years and years of therapy, don't get over it, but can, at best, try to deal with it.
I do believe that it's necessary to take a stand for people who haven't asked for it. Those are people without voices - if you only support or stand up for those who've been able to ask, you condemn the most vulnerable, frightened and crushed under members of society, those who have no voice and have no hope. Even aside from this specific discussion, that is an important point to note.
And I don't disagree. I think too often people are speaking up for, and speaking louder than, some that do have a voice. Its an unfortunate side effect of modern outrage culture. Sexual abuse is a legitimate issue and I am pro advocacy on this matter. I just generally want to encourage this advocacy be used in an advancing way, rather than a continued avoidance way.


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What you all seem to have missed is that this isn't about the movie-goers, or the people who made it. This isn't even about Glitter himself.
It's about his victims.
I'm not defending the placement of the song in the movie. Never was, never will. Simply questioning damaging the livelihood of a lot of people because you are uncomfortable with the choice of the song. I'm not at all trying to sway you to see the movie. Couldn't possibly care less about that. Just encouraging to not think completely black and white about the matter. Again, these victims are now in their 40s and 50s. I think its important to see the potential of both sides that work has been done before you assume they've been avoiding their trauma for like 4 decades.
They aren't actually; as the article stated:
"Glitter, real name Paul Gadd, was convicted in 1999 for downloading thousands of images of child pornography, and was deported from Cambodia in 2002 on suspicion of child sexual abuse. He was jailed in Vietnam in 2006 for molesting two girls, and on his return to the UK was placed on the sex offenders' register for life.
Then in 2015, Gadd was found guilty of attempted rape, several counts of indecent assault, and another count of having sex with a girl under the age of 13, and was sentenced to 16 years in prison."
This is, comparatively, recent.
The conviction and trial were recent. The crimes (after looking into it) were 1975-1980. Not recent.



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"The true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members."

If we allow this to go by without taking some sort of a stand against it, we're failing the people who've suffered most.
Should people speak up about this? Absolutely. A song was included that probably shouldn't. Should we punish multitudes of people because one person did something dumb? (Referring to the inclusion of the song, not the abuse) Generally no.
I don't see how it's punishing anyone. The people who worked on this (the stage hands etc.) who weren't involved in this sort of decision (which wouldn't have been one person making a stupid decision - this is a big budget film, it would had to have been greenlit by a board) have done their job, and they've earned their paycheck - they're not going to get a bonus depending on whether the film does well, they aren't that important to the men in suits. What taking a stand might do (if enough people do it, which is sadly unlikely) is send a message to the people at the top who made this decision that, no, this is not acceptable - and these are the sorts of people who only care if you hit them where it hurts; their wallet. Showing solidarity with the victims affected and making a statement that will hopefully make this less likely to be repeated? I'm not sure what moral argument there is against doing that.
Mostly the fact that these boycotts, especially starting around this point become borderline meaningless due to the massive amount of money it has already made. Well intentioned and good hearted? Definitely. No moral problem with what you are saying. And saying only the suits are getting a check off the back end of the movie is a gross misunderstanding of how the film industry works (but again, has no bearing on the actual point here).


Read my edit for my main point here. I did not intend this to imply that this form of taking a stand is bad. Merely that I'd encourage a stand of solidarity to take a different, more positive, more active form.

A stance like this can easily come off as a person saying "Yeah, you know your abuser? Who was already publicly decided as bad? I too think he is still bad!"

Not a bad thing to say, given in this situation this abuser is receiving money for something. But if you think that's legitimately advocating for the victims, then you don't seem to understand advocacy. Solidarity? Yes. But advocacy is generally going to be more productive and enact more change.
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  #22131  
Old October 7th, 2019, 10:47 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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I agree that boycotting this film would be a good thing but it doesn't take much from me to say that as this seems to be the sort of film I detest anyway. However, I have learned that you can't force others to have the same sense of morality that you do. You can only state your reasons for doing what you do and answer any questions others might have.
No, of course you can't force anyone to have the same sense of morality that you do - but when vulnerable children are involved then perhaps persuasion takes on a greater role than it might otherwise do.
I don't know how much you follow USA politics but yeah, even with children being imprisoned, that backfired here.

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  #22132  
Old October 7th, 2019, 10:50 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

I just looked up what song it is. That was the one song in the movie that gave me a big "What the heck?" reaction because it SOOO did not fit the scene for me. So I'll double down my agreement of it being dumb that it is there.

Still gonna reiterate the advocacy is better than just solidarity stance here though. That takes us much farther in the end.
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  #22133  
Old October 7th, 2019, 10:51 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

I wasn't even talking about advocacy (which is necessary and important). I was talking about solidarity. I was talking about not letting an active injustice slide. I was talking about not supporting those who perpetuate said injustice. I was talking about the bare minimum.


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  #22134  
Old October 7th, 2019, 10:56 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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I wasn't even talking about advocacy (which is necessary and important). I was talking about solidarity. I was talking about not letting an active injustice slide. I was talking about not supporting those who perpetuate said injustice. I was talking about the bare minimum.
And I was talking about the world has plenty of solidarity for mental health and trauma, but not nearly enough advocacy. Sounds like at the core neither of us were disagreeing, just stressing the importance of two different things. I have no intention of ever seeing the film again, but that's based on my own dislike of the films portrayals of various themes.

I'll retroactively concede some more of what I said now that I realize what specific song it is because good lord is it overplayed. I hope so much that the people have done their work and gotten to an appropriate place with it because they ain't escaping that song just because they avoid this movie. Its freaking everywhere, especially in sports.
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  #22135  
Old October 7th, 2019, 11:06 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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I agree that boycotting this film would be a good thing but it doesn't take much from me to say that as this seems to be the sort of film I detest anyway. However, I have learned that you can't force others to have the same sense of morality that you do. You can only state your reasons for doing what you do and answer any questions others might have.
No, of course you can't force anyone to have the same sense of morality that you do - but when vulnerable children are involved then perhaps persuasion takes on a greater role than it might otherwise do.
I don't know how much you follow USA politics but yeah, even with children being imprisoned, that backfired here.
I absolutely do, and I know exactly what you're referring to. I see what you mean, but I don't see how ignoring a problem makes it better. It's necessary to speak up.


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I wasn't even talking about advocacy (which is necessary and important). I was talking about solidarity. I was talking about not letting an active injustice slide. I was talking about not supporting those who perpetuate said injustice. I was talking about the bare minimum.
And I was talking about the world has plenty of solidarity for mental health and trauma, but not nearly enough advocacy. Sounds like at the core neither of us were disagreeing, just stressing the importance of two different things. I have no intention of ever seeing the film again, but that's based on my own dislike of the films portrayals of various themes.

I'll retroactively concede some more of what I said now that I realize what specific song it is because good lord is it overplayed. I hope so much that the people have done their work and gotten to an appropriate place with it because they ain't escaping that song just because they avoid this movie. Its freaking everywhere, especially in sports.

It doesn't sound as though we were, in retrospect - it seems as though we misunderstood each other rather than actually disagreed. One thing I didn't realise is how prolific this song is - I'm now even more horrified. I dearly hope his victims are okay, and maybe some of the condemnation over this film will spill over into the the times the song's used without consideration elsewhere. That would at least be something.


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  #22136  
Old October 7th, 2019, 11:07 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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I agree that boycotting this film would be a good thing but it doesn't take much from me to say that as this seems to be the sort of film I detest anyway. However, I have learned that you can't force others to have the same sense of morality that you do. You can only state your reasons for doing what you do and answer any questions others might have.
No, of course you can't force anyone to have the same sense of morality that you do - but when vulnerable children are involved then perhaps persuasion takes on a greater role than it might otherwise do.
I don't know how much you follow USA politics but yeah, even with children being imprisoned, that backfired here.
I absolutely do, and I know exactly what you're referring to. I see what you mean, but I don't see how ignoring a problem makes it better. It's necessary to speak up.
I agree. Speak up but don't push. Pushing can make it even worse than not speaking up at all.

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  #22137  
Old October 7th, 2019, 11:15 AM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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It doesn't sound as though we were, in retrospect - it seems as though we misunderstood each other rather than actually disagreed. One thing I didn't realise is how prolific this song is - I'm now even more horrified. I dearly hope his victims are okay, and maybe some of the condemnation over this film will spill over into the the times the song's used without consideration elsewhere. That would at least be something.
That's probably a bit more accurate. I am at times prone to missing an important point or two when I type online. Spend too much of that important focus on my clinical notes. But yeah it is very widely used. And there's definitely validity to the thought that it shouldn't be that wide, even if I do mostly agree with Bats's point of society not being in the business of deciding these things (or however he phrased it).
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  #22138  
Old October 7th, 2019, 01:44 PM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

I must admit I’ve been pretty annoyed by how determined the media seems to be to make this movie into a controversy, but this is a legitimate concern.

I’m always extremely hesitant with the idea of deciding what people should/shouldn’t enjoy based off a nebulous concept of “protecting” people. Freedom of speech and art are extremely important (I personally think that’s the true factor that determines the worth of a society), and all too often the idea of protecting the defenseless seems to be used just as an excuse for censorship of expression.

In the original releases of Toy Story 2, there was a fake animated “blooper reel.” One of the scenes was the Stinky Pete character doing a “casting couch” sort of situation with 2 Barbie dolls. In the most recent releases of the movie, that “blooper” has been removed, and I personally think that really sucks. Not because I think it’s a particularly great gag or anything, but because a part of someone’s artistic vision was compromised.

I get why Disney did it from a business perspective, and I get how seeing that scene could unearth trauma in somebody who had been in a comparable situation. I can even accept that maybe that kind of joke never belonged in a family product to begin with. But I’m deeply uncomfortable with the idea that artistic vision had to be sanitized in order to make a product somehow “less harmful.”

I do think the Joker situation is less clear-cut. I can totally agree that signing off on a song by a convicted pedophile being in this movie was an utterly moronic move, and yes I can see how it’s disrespectful. I’m not the kind of absolutist who believes they should be free of all consequences of that because “free speech” means nobody can ever be held accountable for anything. If it makes you uncomfortable to pay to see the movie, I completely understand and I don’t judge you at all.

But decreeing that there’s a moral imperative not to enjoy a work because that work is potentially harmful (And note the word potentially; afaik no victims have actually come forward on this matter) is a dangerous and bad idea. People need to be free to watch what they want, and they need to be free to say what they want. If we’re creating a world where people feel like they’re morally obligated to destroy anything that might be “harmful”, we’re creating a world where speech isn’t truly free anymore.
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  #22139  
Old October 7th, 2019, 02:52 PM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

Yep. I think an advanced society can and should be able to separate the art from the artist.

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Old October 7th, 2019, 03:21 PM
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Re: The C3G Cave - Hangout

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I must admit I’ve been pretty annoyed by how determined the media seems to be to make this movie into a controversy, but this is a legitimate concern.

I’m always extremely hesitant with the idea of deciding what people should/shouldn’t enjoy based off a nebulous concept of “protecting” people. Freedom of speech and art are extremely important (I personally think that’s the true factor that determines the worth of a society), and all too often the idea of protecting the defenseless seems to be used just as an excuse for censorship of expression.

In the original releases of Toy Story 2, there was a fake animated “blooper reel.” One of the scenes was the Stinky Pete character doing a “casting couch” sort of situation with 2 Barbie dolls. In the most recent releases of the movie, that “blooper” has been removed, and I personally think that really sucks. Not because I think it’s a particularly great gag or anything, but because a part of someone’s artistic vision was compromised.

I get why Disney did it from a business perspective, and I get how seeing that scene could unearth trauma in somebody who had been in a comparable situation. I can even accept that maybe that kind of joke never belonged in a family product to begin with. But I’m deeply uncomfortable with the idea that artistic vision had to be sanitized in order to make a product somehow “less harmful.”

I do think the Joker situation is less clear-cut. I can totally agree that signing off on a song by a convicted pedophile being in this movie was an utterly moronic move, and yes I can see how it’s disrespectful. I’m not the kind of absolutist who believes they should be free of all consequences of that because “free speech” means nobody can ever be held accountable for anything. If it makes you uncomfortable to pay to see the movie, I completely understand and I don’t judge you at all.

But decreeing that there’s a moral imperative not to enjoy a work because that work is potentially harmful (And note the word potentially; afaik no victims have actually come forward on this matter) is a dangerous and bad idea. People need to be free to watch what they want, and they need to be free to say what they want. If we’re creating a world where people feel like they’re morally obligated to destroy anything that might be “harmful”, we’re creating a world where speech isn’t truly free anymore.
1) Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. It just means that the government isn't going to lock you up or penalise you for doing something - but if you say, or do, or produce something which is inconsiderate, or hate-filled, or damaging, or hurtful, I would consider it the right of anyone who cares about people more vulnerable than themselves to use their freedom of speech to stand up for those people, and against the person using their freedom of speech to, intentionally or otherwise, cause harm. In fact, I'd consider it a moral duty to refuse support such actions; to refuse to do otherwise is simple hypocrisy and callousness. I find it amazing how often you find people defending themselves or others on the basis of free speech, and using that justification to claim that the people expressing criticism shouldn't do so. Protest and criticism is a form of free-speech, whether against governments, companies or individuals - perhaps the most important form.



2) The result of absolute freedom would be absolute anarchy - at least until someone gathers enough support to impose their own will, whatever that may be. Absolute freedom could never actually work, and there is a reason that it isn't in action. There are already limits on free speech - incitement to genocide is illegal under international criminal law, for an extreme example; most developed countries have crimes against slander, libel and defamation; harassment and threats of violence are often (and rightfully) considered illegal. There's no black and white here, and the question is where to draw the line, not whether there is a line.



3) The right to free speech isn't the right to a platform. You may have the right to draw the most racist caricatures possible, but every single publication has the right to refuse to publish it, regardless of whatever claims the artist might make of them 'treading on his artistic vision' - and if they choose to publish it, then, as said before, it is the right of the public to condemn them for doing so if they so desire. To that point, the scene in Toy Story 2 being removed is actually fair enough - I haven't seen it, but if Disney considered it something they felt it best to remove to not give the wrong impression, that is their right. Do I think censorship can sometimes be silly? Yes, I do - just one example, I watch tonnes of Whose Line is It Anyway? on YouTube, including compilations of the outtakes, and sometimes I find the places they drew the line downright weird - but it was their right to do so, if they didn't feel comfortable airing it. Warner Brothers had no obligation to put that song in this film - they chose to do so, they chose that the impact it could have didn't matter to them. (A very cynical part of my brain wonders if it was a calculated move, on the basis that 'any publicity is good publicity' - they must have known of the associations, and LV said it was odd fit anyway.) I don't see how it's wrong, or censorship, to send a message saying that, no, that isn't okay, and imploring people who care about Glitter's victims not to give money to Warner Brothers (and, indeed, Glitter himself) over this as a result.



4) As an extention to that, freedom of speech doesn't equal equality either, sadly. Some people, quite simply, have more access to a platform than others, for reasons beyond the validity of their statements; usually relating to fame, money or position. You might say that protecting the defenceless might be used as an excuse for censorship, and maybe sometimes it is, but you have to remember - they are defenceless. They don't have the same voice. Whether because people won't give them the platform, or because they don't have the money to obtain a platform, or because fear or anxiety keep them quiet, not everyone has the ability to converse on an equal level. So, a 'free marketplace of ideas', without checks and balances, would just result in the popular shouting down the vulnerable. While the system may be 'freedom' on paper, in execution, it's anything but. Absolute freedom and true freedom are not the same, and true freedom can only be achieved if we have protections to keep the most vulnerable from being trodden underfoot. As such, I maintain that the best measure of a society is how it cares for its most vulnerable, rather than the level of freedom it allows - only by protecting the vulnerable can they be truly free.


My Family's Classic Customs
- The Stiff Corpse
=====================

Last edited by Lazy Orang; October 8th, 2019 at 05:07 AM.
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