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  #1  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:17 PM
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Question Does the main event need an overhaul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
I also forgot to mention that both armies also have Q9. Both armies have Raelin as well. So no real creativity this year in the top army choices. I am thinking that this is a good indicator that we need some new way to encourage players away from this stagnation in army choices. It will destroy our meager tourney scene.
I think we should discuss it. I would like to see how well these guys can do without the Q9/Raelin/Rat stagnant combo.
Has the main event grown stagnant? What are your opinions and what ideas do you have?

I don't think banning is the way to go or start zone changes. I believe that a restriction to the number of squads would change a lot. Allow only 2 copies of a squad, you have your initial force with 1 squad of reinforcements. It limits rat builds, armies will have to be more diverse, you increase OM management which in turn increases strategy. When 1 person can load all markers on 1 card for the game, what kind of strategy is that? Why even play with the markers? I feel that the markers are an intregal part of Heroscape, it is what makes it unique.

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P.S.- To go ahead and respond to those who WILL ask, there is still plenty of reason to buy multiple squads. Even changing main stream events to a 2x squad limit, I would continue to buy 4x or more for scenario play and group games. I have not been able to attend a tourney in 3 yrs., yet I have bought more multiples of D&D than I have in the past. I also was buying 3x squads before I ever heard of tourney play.

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  #2  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:31 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xraine69 View Post
When 1 person can load all markers on 1 card for the game, what kind of strategy is that? Why even play with the markers? I feel that the markers are an intregal part of Heroscape, it is what makes it unique.
The day 2 armies MTCC and I played are extremely strong, but one thing they definitely don't have is easy OM management. Both of us were juggling activations all over the place.

More broadly speaking, your suggestion seems like a gross overreaction to what happened. I discussed this in my battle report, but briefly:
  • There is still a ton of different types of builds among the successful armies at Gencon. The championship finalists played very similar armies but this disguises the overall diversity.

  • The armies we played have some bad matchups - we just didn't face them on that given day.

  • The reaver/raelin/unique range build is harder to play than it gets credit for. Lots of people didn't make day 2 with similar builds, yet three knight builds did make it.
Moreover, cutting down the squad multiples actually hurts many other builds (most notably melee and 4th) much more than it hurts the ratpodges. You would probably make the rats more popular, not less, with that change, as people would be playing lots of uniques and would toss ratsx2 in all that empty space.
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  #3  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:32 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

The thing is, the problem with the rat-podge isn't order marker complexity. In fact, if anything, Dok's and ManTrainChooChoo's armies are extremely order marker intensive, with all the uniques they have to juggle.

Further, allowing only 2 of any given squad in an army kills any hope for armies that are intended to be swarms. Knights? Orcs? Ashigaru? Not to mention, I would never play Vipers in a tournament if I were only allowed two squads; they're my favorite army besides Vydar Range and 10th.

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Last edited by Fencerjared; August 10th, 2010 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Dok said it firster and betterer
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  #4  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:36 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

I've been waiting for a thread like this. Here are two changes that you can either love or leave. I do not want restrictions on any units and could care less if someone wants to play Reavers x5, or 4th Mass x5, or other degenerateness.

Power Glyphs to Treasure Glyphs - Getting rid of Defense+1 (Wannok) is probably the most neccessary change. Attack+1, Common Attack+1, and Unique Attack+1 have all been eliminated due to the damage they've caused. Defense+1 slows the game down. With Treasure Glyphs, heroes are encouraged and the trap rule makes them a little bit of a gamble.

Lowered Point Cost - I've never thought that more points makes for a better game. I played the Lightweight over the last weekend and many of the games were still just as fun and tense as a normal 500 point game of Heroscape. I'm proposing that next year's main event drop down to 470-480. This eliminates the possibility of playing the top 3 winning armies from the last three years and reopens some old builds. In addition it helps with time constraints.

Grenade lobbyist

Last edited by MattserTruckRally; August 10th, 2010 at 04:46 PM. Reason: The Main Event has not grown stagnant. Small changes from year to year are nice. Is degenerateness a word?
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  #5  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:41 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

limiting squads is not a solution. Several armies rely/need multiple squads to be viable.

A limit of 2 viper squads or 2 zombies can't do what they're designed to do with just 2.

The best idea I've heard is limiting combinations or #'s of A+ ranked units. I'm not saying I'm 100% behind this but it's allot better then the other ideas thrown out.

Limiting Start-zone = Stinger creep
Limiting OM placement = Bonding problems
Banning Units/Cards = Getting away from what HS is about

IDK honestly I'm interested in seeing what everyone thinks. Limiting #'s of ranked units seems to be a good system. Each squad of rats count towards it.

Limit of 3 = Q9+2 rats, Raelin+2 rats, 3 rats or any combination.

Each of those builds is allot easier to face then Q9/Raelin/3rats but I also think it opens a box of worms to some.

It's hard to find a balance and I don't want to argue with people over something like this every year as new army builds are discovered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattserTruckRally View Post
Lowered Point Cost - I've never thought that more points makes for a better game. I played the Lightweight over the last weekend and many of the games were still just as fun and tense as a normal 500 point game of Heroscape. I'm proposing that next year's main event drop down to 470-480. This eliminates the possibly of playing the top 3 winning armies from the last three years and possibly reopens some old builds. In addition it helps with time constraints.

Actually I think I like this idea more then anything else.

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Last edited by Worseley; August 10th, 2010 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Agree!
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Old August 10th, 2010, 02:52 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

My only question on the Day 2 builds, is how is having 16 figures out of 24 that can move on their own, OM extensive? Sorry, never played against any of the top players, but I have beaten a Braxas and Krav build (played by Noodles) with a 2x Vipers and Aubrien build.

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  #7  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:52 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

Ranged Counterstrike against Special Attacks at around 180 points would quickly resolve the Q issue.
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  #8  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:54 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

I'd say ban combos, not figures. Say no Q9 + Raelin, or Q9 + rats, or Raelin + rats, or Q9 + Raelin + rats, for example. Break the combos that make it too easy to win
.
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  #9  
Old August 10th, 2010, 03:00 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

Also I have a third idea, quite possibly the best one of them all:

Handicapping - Since players like dok, ManTrain, RoninValentina, etc. are to good and are even better with A/A+ units I propose we force them to play units that are Fs and Ds next year. This is the only logical way to even up the playing field and give others at least a 30-40% chance of winning next year.

Grenade lobbyist

Last edited by MattserTruckRally; August 10th, 2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: I'm so smart. :) (insert sarcasm tag just in case)
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  #10  
Old August 10th, 2010, 03:07 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

I do not believe CVN saw squads as 10x for an army(go back and play RotV figures only for awhile). I believe the intent of a squad is to take out a hero. Mixing and matching heros with a limit on squads is a much more fun game for me. A little more to think about with OM management, and much more strategy involved.

I started the thread, but I am going to bow out of the conversation now because I already know from past experience that when it comes to this issue, no one agrees with me.

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  #11  
Old August 10th, 2010, 03:08 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
I'd say ban combos, not figures. Say no Q9 + Raelin, or Q9 + rats, or Raelin + rats, or Q9 + Raelin + rats, for example. Break the combos that make it too easy to win
.
MegaSilver
I don't think you need to ban combos or any figures, they just need to have an effective counter, such as a big, fast heavy hitter with disengage at around 260 points would be a fine counter to those combinations. Something like M6,A7,D4,R1 would be fine, and easily within the designers reach.
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  #12  
Old August 10th, 2010, 03:15 PM
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Re: Does the main event need an overhaul?

I still feel that banning certain combos is an overreaction. We've had 5 years of the main event, at least four of which were well after the release of rats and Q9. This combo has now won once. Heck, this year was the first time anything other than Raelin was in the championship army for a second time.*

Mattser's suggestions (the first two, non-sarcastic ones) are both interesting. I think a mix of treasure glyphs and some of the more restrained classic glyphs (e.g. the other four glyphs in the pool this year aside from defense) could create a nice effect. I don't see why it needs to be either/or.

Still, I could see a completely different army winning next year even with a very similar format. We're still absorbing the impact of the new figures, and it's clear already that the GSWs and the Hydra will both figure prominently in the metagame.

Last edited by dok; August 10th, 2010 at 03:18 PM. Reason: * Unless Matt or Joe count as "something"
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