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C3G Legacy Library This is the archive for all the designs released in the original era of C3G. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.

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  #109  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
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Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
At risk of disappointment: no strong preference. I think the skeleton we have is strong, design-wise and resonant theme-wise. We can tweak stuff in it for easier understanding or thematic detail, but I think that should be secondary to how well she plays. Which details lead to a design that reads and plays best, as a cohesive unit?

That being said: not really into the Etin callout. There's no shortage of races in the Nine Realms, so sticking to just Asgardians makes the most sense to me.
The thing is, right now, it seems absolutely wrong to me that an enemy of Asgard requires Asgardian allies to be viable 99% of the time, which she absolutely does. If we go with the design as it is at present, I can tell you right now it would never pass a Theme Test from me, on that point alone - and that's before you get into what I think about the way she should be gathering souls, and what souls she should be gathering.

~Lazy Orang, who'd love to have @Spidey'tilIDie 's clarification.
I'm not getting this argument...how does she need Asgardian Allies to be viable...she needs Asgardian Enemies to be viable yes, which as an enemy of Asgard doesn't that meet the theme?
She benefits from any Asgardian dying, friend or foe. So, she wouldn't need Asgardians allies when fighting other Asgardians (though it would still definitely help, which doesn't feel right), but for a figure to be viable as more than a counterdraft in C3G, you'd have to consider their value against the tonnes of other potential builds out there - it may be her most thematic matchup, but most battles will be against something - anything - else, and those times, you'll bet she needs Asgardians on her side to work. Since it's your army that's in your control, not your opponent's, it only makes sense to draft her with her enemies right now - there's no other valid option, which is, IMO, a massive issue.


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  #110  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:25 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
She benefits from any Asgardian dying, friend or foe. So, she wouldn't need Asgardians allies when fighting other Asgardians (though it would still definitely help, which doesn't feel right), but for a figure to be viable as more than a counterdraft in C3G, you'd have to consider their value against the tonnes of other potential builds out there - it may be her most thematic matchup, but most battles will be against something - anything - else, and those times, you'll bet she needs Asgardians on her side to work. Since it's your army that's in your control, not your opponent's, it only makes sense to draft her with her enemies right now - there's no other valid option, which is, IMO, a massive issue.
I'll reiterate my response that I posted right before yours:

She doesn’t need either to be viable if you ask me. She plays better when there are Asgardians that have been destroyed, friend or foe, sure, but her effectiveness does not require it. IMO, that’s accurate. Queen of Hel is not the power that makes her good, it’s her Touch of Death Special Attack and Goddess of Death powers that are her draw. Those make her viable in any army. Queen of Hel is merely a bonus.

So your analysis is off. You're making it seem as if she's no good in any game unless it contains Asgardians, which is just incorrect. A special attack of 4 that doubles each skull, with a follow up auto-destroy on a 15 or higher(subtracting their remaining life from the roll) is already a really good tool of destruction. Then add on to the fact that anything she manages to kill herself, you get to put on her card and either once per game revive with 3 life remaining, or use as a +1 skull/shield/or add to her d20 roll per figure. We're looking at a design that will play great or better in an Asgardian game, but play good or better in a non-Asgardian game.

As far as theme goes, it was best stated by Ronin in that we're going to be ending up a little loose on theme however you slice it. Be it as-is or what you're suggesting it be changed to(the idea of non-heroic deaths equating to ranged attacks, special attacks, or special powers being the final hit), either way it's not going to be absolutely perfect.
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  #111  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:26 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

The most effective army for Hela is probably going to mostly be Asgardians, correct. But in the comics, whenever it's "Thor vs. Hela," who does Hela have alongside her? A bunch of... Asgardians. Like, dead Asgardians, but still Asgardians. It'd be weirder for her to be leading pretty much any other sort of army if we're being real.

Hela + Asgardian Warriors is a perfectly valid army for me, thematically, and you'd get full use of her card. You just have a squint a bit. And we've already seeded some forward-thinking synergy for possible Undead Asgardians on this card, where squinting isn't necessary.

Also, side note - how do we feel about "Thrall" instead of "Reanimate" for Hela's synergy hook? Old Scandinavian word for slave, and it has some nice mind control-y vibes. (Also some weird synergy with C3V's Thralls but, hey, I'd call that a bonus.)
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  #112  
Old January 1st, 2018, 06:35 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

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Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
Also, side note - how do we feel about "Thrall" instead of "Reanimate" for Hela's synergy hook? Old Scandinavian word for slave, and it has some nice mind control-y vibes. (Also some weird synergy with C3V's Thralls but, hey, I'd call that a bonus.)
I'd be on board with Thrall. Which reminds me, a small design tweak that may better support future designs to go with her in leading a dead Asgardian army as desired, would be to allow the figures killed by Thrall she controls to be placed on her card as well.

Quote:
QUEEN OF HEL
Immediately after an opponent's Unique Hero is destroyed by Hela or a Thrall you control, or any Unique Asgardian Hero that is destroyed, you may place the destroyed figure on this Army Card. Before any die is rolled for Hela or for a Thrall you control, you may remove any number of figures from this Army Card and add or subtract a skull, shield, blank, or 1 from that roll for each figure removed.
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  #113  
Old January 1st, 2018, 09:04 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

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Originally Posted by Arkham View Post
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Originally Posted by johnny139 View Post
Also, side note - how do we feel about "Thrall" instead of "Reanimate" for Hela's synergy hook? Old Scandinavian word for slave, and it has some nice mind control-y vibes. (Also some weird synergy with C3V's Thralls but, hey, I'd call that a bonus.)
I'd be on board with Thrall. Which reminds me, a small design tweak that may better support future designs to go with her in leading a dead Asgardian army as desired, would be to allow the figures killed by Thrall she controls to be placed on her card as well.

Quote:
QUEEN OF HEL
Immediately after an opponent's Unique Hero is destroyed by Hela or a Thrall you control, or any Unique Asgardian Hero that is destroyed, you may place the destroyed figure on this Army Card. Before any die is rolled for Hela or for a Thrall you control, you may remove any number of figures from this Army Card and add or subtract a skull, shield, blank, or 1 from that roll for each figure removed.
I like that tweak. Should make it a lot easier to design Tyr and some generic dead Asgardians.

Without going point by point over the whole discussion here, my thoughts more or less line up with johnny's. It might not be super faithful to the actual mythology, but the take on Hela here does resonate with when I've seen her pop up in the comics.

Plus, once we get more of those Thralls designed, the regular Asgardians are going to take more of a backseat. To me, this looks like a very minor issue that's only going to get smaller.

The only point I'm seeing where I really diverge from johnny is on the Etins - I don't think it's worth breaking out a bulleted list to try and grab every so-and-so in the 9 Realms, but the number of Etins in the game and Hela's association with Loki merits their inclusion, IMO.
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  #114  
Old January 1st, 2018, 09:16 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

Since I was pinged for this, my thoughts are that the design is fine where it stands.

-She really doesn't need Asgardians in her army to be playable, it's an option, but so is just blasting on people and stealing their souls.

-I feel simply having the species Asgardian already causes her to gravitate toward Asgardian builds regardless of how her power works, and that's not going to be changed.

-I don't see why it's that terrible of a thing for her to work with Asgardians to begin with. It makes more sense than anything else save the Zombgardians being talked about.

-I don't feel the 'killed by things not melee attacks' thing really translates to 'dishonorable death' in any meaningful way. It seems incredibly abstracted and I don't think many would even get the connection without it being explained to them.


Side note the first, I like the idea of adding in the Thrall stuff. Let's her play more as a general once some thematic Zombgardians are made.


Side note the second, Goddess of Death should specify Unique Heroes. Otherwise she can use it to revive a Common or Event Hero placed on her card by an outside source (like Ghost Rider or the like).


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  #115  
Old January 1st, 2018, 09:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

Updated GoD with Unique.
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  #116  
Old January 2nd, 2018, 01:05 AM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

Yeah, I'm not seeing the heavy dependence on Asguardians here since she can place any figure she destroys on her card combined with a pretty potent SA. Having a few in your army is a nice fall back plan should you fail to kill anything with her but it the design isn't dependent on that. I actually kind of like the idea of pairing her up with some of the uncommon Asguardian warriors. Those guys don't see enough play time in my games and as the 'god of death/ruler of the afterlife' she should certainly have some living followers. Death cults are a real thing. It is just too bad Hela + Asguardian Warrior x? doesn't add up to 800/1000/1200 on it's own. That could have been a nice little army.

As for the Ettin connection, I'm a bit split on that. The Ettin could certainly use some more army build options but I'm personally not familiar with her leading or working with the Frost Giants.
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  #117  
Old January 2nd, 2018, 03:16 AM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

Well, technically, since she is Loki's daughter, she is part Frost Giant, aka Ettin.
As far as clarifying my earlier remarks, I do like the proposed power change, but to be honest, I never had a problem with the current wording. I agree with the comments L_O made about Norse mythology, but it's important to realize that Marvel has strayed from that more and more, each time they add their own stories to the greater mythos. Just please realize that she is NOT the lost child of Odin from the movies.

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  #118  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:48 AM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

It seems like the majority are fine with keeping it as-is, and the only point of contention left is whether to add Etin to the power or not.

Seeing as everyone but @johnny139 is on board with the inclusion, I figure it's at least worth seeing how much reluctance/push back there is there.

Here's how the power would read if it were added:

Quote:
QUEEN OF HEL
Immediately after an opponent's Unique Hero is destroyed by Hela or a Thrall you control, or any Unique Asgardian Hero or Unique Etin Hero that is destroyed, you may place the destroyed figure on this Army Card. Before any die is rolled for Hela or for a Thrall you control, you may remove any number of figures from this Army Card and add or subtract a skull, shield, blank, or 1 from that roll for each figure removed.
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  #119  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:54 AM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

Try this:

Quote:
QUEEN OF HEL
Immediately after an opponent's Unique Hero is destroyed by Hela or a Thrall you control, or any Unique Asgardian or Etin Hero is destroyed, you may place the destroyed figure on this Army Card. Before any die is rolled for Hela or for a Thrall you control, you may remove any number of figures from this Army Card and add or subtract a skull, shield, blank, or 1 from that roll for each figure removed.

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  #120  
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Hela (Public Playtest)

I have no opinion either way on the Etin thing. I had more of an issue with the ranged attack "dishonorable death" thing and had no issue with what you had originally. I do like the inclusion of the Thrall as well.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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