Project Pokemon Brainstorming Thread: Evolution

[fiddlerjones]

The ideas are appreciated, Kroz, but we settled the matter very definitively when the project first started. Lengthy debate followed by a vote codified spelling out every power on the card as Project Pokemon Policy (woo alliteration). I don't feel like going through that debate again.

Heroscape is not Warhammer. It is, by nature, a simpler game with simpler powers. This gives it an elegance that I appreciate. Spelling out the powers on the cards offers threefold benefits: the cards are more similar and compatible with Classic 'Scape; the powers are conveniently located right in front of you while you're playing; and (most importantly) it provides a natural constraint to prevent us from making the powers too complicated. Powers don't have to do exactly what they do in the video game. We can simplify and adapt to take advantage of the tactical possibilities that Heroscape offers.

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[Kaiyu]

As much as it saddens me to contrtict the possibilities, I have to agree with wulf and fiddler My reasons come from examples. Every non-wound marker marker is explained on the card. Morsebane's negation marker. Tagawa Samurai's experience marker. Some things, you just can't avoid if we want them to be Heroscape official.

[NightSwipe]

Originally Posted by kaiyu0707

Some things, you just can't avoid if we want them to be Heroscape official.

That's the biggest problem right now, I think... but it will all be worth it in the end.

[White Knight]

Final vote was 19-14 in favor of keeping all Status Effect text on the cards.

You can read through the vote thread here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...status+effects

There were lots of arguements for and against, but in the end it came down to a vote. If anyone wants to try to overturn a vote (especially a Community Vote), we probably need rules for how to do that.

[wulfhunter667]

Originally Posted by White Knight

Final vote was 19-14 in favor of keeping all Status Effect text on the cards.

You can read through the vote thread here:
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...status+effects

There were lots of arguements for and against, but in the end it came down to a vote. If anyone wants to try to overturn a vote (especially a Community Vote), we probably need rules for how to do that.

As I've said, and Fiddler reiterated, we have discussed this a while back and we voted to have it be 100% HSC (Heroscape Compatible) with powers listed on the card. I don't know what further explaination is needed here.

[Warlord Alpha]

You guys, there is a HUGE difference between Morsbane's negation markers and, lets say a Paralysis status marker.

Morsbane Rod of Negation is on ONE FIGURE, and will likely never be used on another figure. Why would it make sense, then, for them to put Rod of Negation's marker in the rulebook? It isn't worth it, because it is only one figure out of hundreds.

The difference with Paralysis is that it is going to be going on TONS of figures. We already have two that should have it, but one doesn't because of unnecessary space constraints. There are just so many Pokemon that can learn an electric type move. In that case, the Paralysis status effect will be incredibly common. So common, in fact, that we can justify putting it in the rulebook.

Kaiyu, you mentioned the wound markers. You know where I am going with this. Take a look at Sonlen's card. For Dragon Swoop, it simply says "the chosen figure receives one wound." Wulf, it doesn't say "The chosen figure recieves one wound. If it is a squad figure destroy it. If it is a Hero figure with more than one life remaining place a wound marker on that Hero's army card." Is that too complicated for your kids? Did the designers do something wrong when they didn't spell out what to do on the card, and instead put it in the rulebook? Or is this some random exception you are going to create just so that you are right?

And guys, you still don't acknowledge that there are alternatives to putting them in the rulebook. We can put them on a nice, simple reference card the size of an index card (or an army card if we wanted) and players can easily keep them nearby. Furthermore, I still say that putting them on the markers themselves is the best option.

You guys, these status effects are just going to be so common that we can't keep putting them on the cards. Putting them on the markers, on a reference card, AND in the rulebook is all right in the situation. They are too common to keep putting them on the cards. Some of you guys mentioned giving Gastly curse. I would be fine with keeping that on the card, as that isn't all that common. Maybe only two or three Pokemon will end up with that move. Same for Destiny Bond if we decide to use a marker for that power.

But effects like paralyzed, burned, frozen, poisoned, asleep, and confused are incredibly common. Chances are, one of them will be on almost every single card we make. That is common enough to warrant taking it off of the cards.



Also, Wulf, admit right now that this debate isn't about Classic Heroscape compatibility. All of your points against me were about usability. None of this breaks compatibility.

edit: What further explanation I want is how this breaks compatibility. That was the entire reason we did this whole "on the card" thing before and now we are shooting ourselves in the foot. If you can't tell me why it breaks compatibility then I demand this be overturned.

edit #2: THAT WAS A COMMUNITY VOTE?!?!? For that reason alone it should not even count! They sure as hell didn't read over all the pages of discussion to make an informed decision! Reading over your little pros and cons list, they were incredibly biased in favor of putting everything on the card.

[Kroz]

While I agree with you WA, keep your tone a bit more civil.

My argument for putting them on a separate card like the glyph cards is because this would not break compatibility because it's already been done. We know that this has been done before and that it would save us lots of room on cards. One of your arguments against this is that you don't want your kids looking it up in the rulebook every ten seconds. You're right. I wouldn't want to be doing that either. But having a card exactly like the glyph cards would allow you to have it right in front of you. Your kids get to have it on a card right in front of them, and we get more room for powers. I don't see how this breaks compatibility at all. I could see how putting them in the rulebook would be undesirable. Putting them on their own separate card though, I don't see how it would conflict. This wouldn't turn it into warhammer as we have an example in heroscape.

[Kaiyu]

Alright. So we're treating the release of the master set as if it were a release of an set by Hasbro or WotC, right? So we want to make it as official as those sets and use other master set releases as a precedent, right? Well think of the Swarm of the Marro master set. There had to be special rules listed for the Marro Hive. Even though it had a perfectly official Army Card, they made special rules for it in the rule book (like not being able to move through it with Ghost Walk, what to do when its destroyed, and how it can't' be moved by any ability) Heck, even the Rise of the Valkyrie set had a page dedicated to Mimring. There wasn't any special rulings needed, but clarification seemed necessary. I don't have the D&D master set, but I'm pretty sure the explained Uncommon Hero in there (which was unprecedented at the time.) I'm no longer convinced we NEED to have the statuses spelt out on the cards.

[Warlord Alpha]

Originally Posted by kaiyu0707

I don't have the D&D master set, but I'm pretty sure the explained Uncommon Hero in there (which was unprecedented at the time.)

Here's the D&D rulebook. It gets spelled out in there.

[Kroz]

If anyone would have tried to make the uncommon hero before MS3, everyone would have jumped on him saying that it was incompatible. I still think that giving them their own cards wouldn't be over the top and it could only help in the end.

[Warlord Alpha]

Here's an example reference card I just made. It is the exact same size as a standard 3x5 index card, so if you want you could cut it out and glue/tape it to an index card so that it becomes indestructible.

[fiddlerjones]

My main argument against changing the policy has nothing to do with Classic Heroscape compatibility. It has to do with design. Because we're recreating characters from a video game, we all have a tendency to want them to do exactly what they do in-game. That's a mistake. Pokemon is far more complex than Heroscape, as are all the moves contained therein. Keeping the status effects spelled out on the cards acts as a natural deterrent from that temptation.

Just because an ability can cause a status effect in the video game does not mean it necessarily needs to in Heroscape. One of the game's greatest strengths is its elegant simplicity. We should adapt to the system with our designs, not adapt the system to our designs. Not every figure needs to cause a status effect or have a d20 roll in its abilities.