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  #1549  
Old December 13th, 2016, 03:42 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm thinking about making another SoV run with the original Viceron the Blood Knight, but tweaking his points.



I still dream of giving him some synergy that works into his merciless theme but I don't want to keep holding him back for finding figures that may never come. 150 was too high but he's swingy enough that I don't want to push him too low. I averaged more in the 140 range in testing him as a solo hero (with substantial variance) so that's where I'm leaning (I couldn't see dropping below 130). I'll probably change his class to Blood Knight as well. Fundamentally, he probably won't be too competitive as a swingy (currently) solo hero.

[EDIT] Mock up of an updated card down at 130. Original posted card in spoiler.
Spoiler Alert!

Last edited by Ixe; December 13th, 2016 at 09:09 PM.
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  #1550  
Old December 13th, 2016, 04:13 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A couple of notes.

1. I liked the Death Knight bonding, but I understand why the other judges were against it. You could even have Undead be immune to the blood storm ritual.
2. While you are changing Power Names, the word Sanguine seems out of place as too archaric a word for Heroscape, as well as also meaning Optimistic or positive. I like "Vamperic Blade", which is much more heroscapey and ties the power to the vampires signature power.
3. If Sir Hawthorn can be a Champion, this guy can be a Knight, as I'm not a huge fan of adding another class, when an existing one will do.
4. I'm sure 130 would be reasonable. That does seem to be the number for under preforming heroes (greater ice elemental, Hatamoto, Kee-Mo-Shi, Tul-Bak-Ra), though I feel he will still be outclassed by 120 pointers.
5. The Stat Number box seems weird. I know you want to keep him unique, but 5 life, 4 attack, 4 Defense, and 3 attack on the special attack would make him much more conventional, but he would also cheaper and more fun (too me at least). At a lower point cost you could use him with a Theracus Bomb, Ornak/Brunak double team, or clean up. He could even be used to clean out a clump of rats.

Hope this helps.


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  #1551  
Old December 13th, 2016, 06:32 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Looking at him again, my feelings I wrote in my reviews hasn't changed. I liked him originally, so I feel the same now. As for price, I don't remember so well how he tested back then, but I think he could afford to go as low as 130.
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  #1552  
Old December 13th, 2016, 10:21 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

What if he were a Lord or a Duke?

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  #1553  
Old December 14th, 2016, 08:47 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
1. I liked the Death Knight bonding, but I understand why the other judges were against it. You could even have Undead be immune to the blood storm ritual.
Merciless really sums him up better, though. The theme of Bloodstorm Ritual is that his blood makes destructive energy. It doesn't care what's in the way (and lends himself more to his merciless nature).

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
2. While you are changing Power Names, the word Sanguine seems out of place as too archaric a word for Heroscape, as well as also meaning Optimistic or positive. I like "Vamperic Blade", which is much more heroscapey and ties the power to the vampires signature power.
You're probably right that Vampiric Blade would be more "scapey" but I really like the name Sanguine Sword. I'm going to keep it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
3. If Sir Hawthorn can be a Champion, this guy can be a Knight, as I'm not a huge fan of adding another class, when an existing one will do.
That's where I'm not so sure. Really this guy is a special type of knight who takes the martial prowess and armored fighting you'd expect from a knight and combines that with blood magic. He has a clear magical nature that I don't feel is truly captured by the knight class.

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
4. I'm sure 130 would be reasonable. That does seem to be the number for under preforming heroes (greater ice elemental, Hatamoto, Kee-Mo-Shi, Tul-Bak-Ra), though I feel he will still be outclassed by 120 pointers.
He's really not quite as bad as this lot but I agree that many 120 pointers will still out perform him. I think it's dangerous to say that they are the new benchmark for power level so I'm leaning towards 130 right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
5. The Stat Number box seems weird. I know you want to keep him unique, but 5 life, 4 attack, 4 Defense, and 3 attack on the special attack would make him much more conventional, but he would also cheaper and more fun (too me at least). At a lower point cost you could use him with a Theracus Bomb, Ornak/Brunak double team, or clean up. He could even be used to clean out a clump of rats.
I want to be careful with the design and not stray too far from what's intended. I could make a cheaper and more reliable hero that way but he won't have the same thrill factor that he has right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
What if he were a Lord or a Duke?
I'd go Lord if I was going to go that route. It's tempting since him killing the skeletons still gives them a chance to spawn off of him. I'll try a test with it and see if I like it and want to test further. One benefit of me just doing a point change is that I don't have to go through a new suite of testing. I don't love the theme change and I do aspire to give him more intentional synergy later but I'll weigh that against performance.
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  #1554  
Old December 14th, 2016, 08:54 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
2. While you are changing Power Names, the word Sanguine seems out of place as too archaric a word for Heroscape, as well as also meaning Optimistic or positive. I like "Vamperic Blade", which is much more heroscapey and ties the power to the vampires signature power.
You're probably right that Vampiric Blade would be more "scapey" but I really like the name Sanguine Sword. I'm going to keep it.
Sanguine doesn't seem that strange to me, I believe I've heard it referenced with blood several times in different fantasy settings, the most prominent example I can think of is a champion in the video game League of Legend. He has an ability called Sanguine Pool, in which he actually uses blood magic to turn into a pool of blood.
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  #1555  
Old December 14th, 2016, 10:21 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The Lord or Duke idea was inspired by the comment that undead should be immune to his special.

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  #1556  
Old December 14th, 2016, 10:24 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
The Lord or Duke idea was inspired by the comment that undead should be immune to his special.
I would also make him weak to Undead Armies - Zombies, Death knights, Phantom Knights, Vampires and the like. Especially if his Sword also did not work on Undead.


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  #1557  
Old December 14th, 2016, 11:50 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
I'm thinking about making another SoV run with the original Viceron the Blood Knight, but tweaking his points.



I still dream of giving him some synergy that works into his merciless theme but I don't want to keep holding him back for finding figures that may never come. 150 was too high but he's swingy enough that I don't want to push him too low. I averaged more in the 140 range in testing him as a solo hero (with substantial variance) so that's where I'm leaning (I couldn't see dropping below 130). I'll probably change his class to Blood Knight as well. Fundamentally, he probably won't be too competitive as a swingy (currently) solo hero.

[EDIT] Mock up of an updated card down at 130. Original posted card in spoiler.
Spoiler Alert!

The design for this unit is really cool.

I can see the quandary of point cost. He has an power that is similar to Brimstone's Heat Blast but that dragon needs to build markers over time to get to 4 attack while Viceron can do it at will (though it costs him 1 life).

Brimstone is still 150 points for a flying 5L/6M/4A/4D figure that does bond with the Greenscales. {I always thought Brimstone was more in the 130-point range}

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=48271

With that comparison, 130 points for the blood knight seems fair - since he doesn't bond. He has strong stats like Eltahale and Siege but that 4 life really does hold him back.

4 Life with 5 Defense - one bad defense roll and he's down - but he can build his health back up with normal attacks.

You have built a nice risk-reward figure : ) so a lot of it would come down to dice rolling.

I would vote for 130 points. Most of the time I'd want Kaemon Awa over Viceron for a straight-up non-bonding hero .. but there would be some drafts where I'd want Viceron for the area-of-effect special attack (or just because the theme is so great).

I could also see his general as Valkrill especially with your comment of "The theme of Bloodstorm Ritual is that his blood makes destructive energy. It doesn't care what's in the way (and lends himself more to his merciless nature)." Personally, I wouldn't mind if he bonded with Death Knights. 2-figure squads could use the help.


Story-wise - he's a "Knight" - and knights generally serve a cause or a sovereign. Will you write up something for a Bio for who he serves/served if you stay with knight? That might not matter - since we have some C3V knights that don't have a Bio - but personally I like the flavor/background story.

What is the figure again? How available is he?
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  #1558  
Old December 15th, 2016, 10:36 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
The Lord or Duke idea was inspired by the comment that undead should be immune to his special.
I would also make him weak to Undead Armies - Zombies, Death knights, Phantom Knights, Vampires and the like. Especially if his Sword also did not work on Undead.
I feel like you think these are positives and I only see negatives. This guy isn't some kindly leader who pulls punches around his friends. He'll kill his own without a second thought if it gives him an advantage. Life Drain carries no type restrictions and I don't plan to start here. I generally dislike thematic exceptions in the first place since it often muddles gameplay and only leaves other weird thematic gaps (i.e. why is a soulborg immune to a plague but not a construct).

Quote:
Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo View Post
I could also see his general as Valkrill
I can see the argument. To put it in D&D terms, I've always seen Valrkill as Chaotic Evil while Utgar was more Lawful Evil (though he just got all evil things for a while). I've personally interpreted Viceron as being a more Lawful Evil type willing to do bad stuff and make sacrifices while ultimately being in control but he could easily go the other way. His color scheme fits a tad better for Utgar, though, so there is that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo View Post
Story-wise - he's a "Knight" - and knights generally serve a cause or a sovereign. Will you write up something for a Bio for who he serves/served if you stay with knight? That might not matter - since we have some C3V knights that don't have a Bio - but personally I like the flavor/background story.
I've always imagined him being basically his own boss and maybe serving some dark D&D god of some sort. I can write up a bio any way I go. Again, I'm shying away slightly from knight now since I feel it overlooks his magical abilities. Then again, if Eltahale can still be a Warden, I guess that shouldn't stop him.

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Originally Posted by obfuscatedhippo View Post
What is the figure again? How available is he?
He is a Thrall of Blackrazor from D&D Miniatures - Unhallowed. I had found 93 miniature s upon initial submission.
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  #1559  
Old December 15th, 2016, 10:51 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
Quote:
The Lord or Duke idea was inspired by the comment that undead should be immune to his special.
I would also make him weak to Undead Armies - Zombies, Death knights, Phantom Knights, Vampires and the like. Especially if his Sword also did not work on Undead.
Oh I was just considering that his blood magic had no effect on undead. A bit like the reverse of Turn Undead in D&D. It creates counter draft armies, which is one of my favorite parts of Heroscape.


It wasn't that he was sparing the Undead, it was that he couldn't attack them. This is just spit balling. your original design at 130 would be a great submission. These are just some ideas for synergy.


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Last edited by wriggz; December 15th, 2016 at 12:38 PM.
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  #1560  
Old December 15th, 2016, 11:09 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Not an expert here but it sounds to me that if you really want this to happen you are going to need to be a little flexible with the design.
I would heed the advice of anyone who has a vote on the matter.

This guy certainly sounds more Valkrill, regardless of color scheme.

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