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  #13  
Old September 25th, 2022, 10:15 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Thanks for pointing out something that's easy to miss for us outsiders in all of this: the behind the scenes creators that impact the overall aesthetic are, of course, not limited to the designers of the cards and lore. It sounds like Bob Naismith really put his aesthetic stamp on OG Heroscape and (reading subtext here) isn't involved this time around, which inevitably creates a big aesthetic shift.
Bob Naismith is involved. His name has been included in the new scape. His sculpting style is not evident, so perhaps he’s a consultant or perhaps he went digital and those old quirks in his style were nothing more than the limitations of old school sculpting methods.

EDIT: Just saw that Capsocrates also posted about Bob. Thanks, yes it should be stated that Bob is also a capable sketch artist. I should also mention that his wife is a sculpting partner. Her name has not been mentioned, so I don’t know if she is involved at all, but she sure was back in old scape.

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  #14  
Old September 25th, 2022, 10:23 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

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Originally Posted by SkyWhale View Post
The concept art may have looked overly detailed and steam-punky, but you see the miniature and it's just some mole guy with a drill. That's perfect for 'scape! And when I look at those miniatures from Gencon, those all seem to fit in fine with my views of Heroscape. I even feel like the Ironclad are less grotesque than the marro have been (so far, at least), and seeing the miniature of the Hellforge Mandukor made me even more certain of that. You could paint it as some body-horror monstrosity, but for most people it will seem more like a little dude driving a big tank with claws and chainsaws.
This is definitely the vibe I’ve been getting based on the actual miniatures we’ve seen. I totally understand the current discourse based on the aesthetic of the concept art, but it does appear that the concept art won’t represent the aesthetic of the miniature. I can’t wait to see all the sculpts, and I hope this suspicion of mine gets confirmed. The Burrowbreaker is peak ‘scape to me, and I hope the spookier models all follow suite.
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  #15  
Old September 25th, 2022, 10:30 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Very thought-provoking, @chas . Thanks for taking the time to compose your thoughts on this in such detail.

I must confess, I don't mind the lack of obvious heroes in the new previews, since it avoids what was, for me, an eyeroll-worthy aspect of the original design: the flag-waving, white-washing American patriotism of classic 'Scape.

So the American bluecoats (4th Mass & Sam Brown) and the American GI's (Drake & Airborne Elite) just happen to be on the same side as the knights-in-shining-armor (Knights of Weston) and the lily-white, blond-haired flying knights-in-shining-armor (Sentinels & Concan) and their lily-white, blond-haired "We fight only defensive wars!" cheerleader (Raelin)? Gee willickers, what a coincidence!

While the Bluecoats' opponents (the 10th Reg) and the various Japanese military units all just happen to follow the same — and less valiant — general, Einar?

Uh huh. I see how this is going.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. But honestly, I'd rather have no heroes than heroes who so patently feed into our self-congratulatory narratives.

Last edited by Typhon2222; September 25th, 2022 at 01:10 PM.
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  #16  
Old September 25th, 2022, 10:31 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Thanks for pointing out something that's easy to miss for us outsiders in all of this: the behind the scenes creators that impact the overall aesthetic are, of course, not limited to the designers of the cards and lore. It sounds like Bob Naismith really put his aesthetic stamp on OG Heroscape and (reading subtext here) isn't involved this time around, which inevitably creates a big aesthetic shift.
Bob Naismith is involved. His name has been included in the new scape. His sculpting style is not evident, so perhaps he’s a consultant or perhaps he went digital and those old quirks in his style were nothing more than the limitations of old school sculpting methods.

EDIT: Just saw that Capsocrates also posted about Bob. Thanks, yes it should be stated that Bob is also a capable sketch artist. I should also mention that his wife is a sculpting partner. Her name has not been mentioned, so I don’t know if she is involved at all, but she sure was back in old scape.
Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding there. It's possible Bob is as involved as ever, I suppose, and just his own aesthetic changed as well.

I think most casual observers would agree, though, that the style of the sculpts is different between OG Scape, DnDscape, and AoAscape.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #17  
Old September 25th, 2022, 11:31 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Since its been mentioned that the new cards will have photos of their minis that are not painted--but in the color of their General I expect, like the minis--there will in effect be no "Official" paint scheme, so there will certainly be wild variations.

I don't go to tournaments much, but I wonder if some players attending will have some initial difficulty identifying another player's pieces! In the local tournaments I attended, even before Customs were a thing, I seem to recall that we used to go through our units on the table before a game began for our opponents.

Nowadays there are so many Customs we play, that we still do it, as some have not even been on the table before. This is also necessary because, while I now have all the C3V cards, we often use proxies for them. This definitely becomes necessary when we use Classic figures as Custom proxies (we try to avoid this).
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  #18  
Old September 25th, 2022, 11:39 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
I must confess, I don't mind the lack of obvious heroes in the new previews, since it avoids what was, for me, an eyeroll-worthy aspect of the original design: the flag-waving, white-washing American patriotism of classic 'Scape.

So the American bluecoats (4th Mass) and the American GI's (Drake and Airborne Elite) just happen to be on the same side as the knights-in-shining-armor (Knights of Weston) and the lily-white, blond-haired flying knights-in-shining-armor (Sentinels of Jandar, Concan) and their lily-white, blond-haired "We fight only defensive wars!" cheerleader (Raelin)? Gee willickers, what a coincidence!

While the Bluecoats' opponents (the 10th Reg) and the various Japanese military units all just happen to follow the same — and less valiant — general, Einar?

Uh huh. I see how this is going.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. But honestly, I'd rather have no heroes than heroes who so patently feed into our self-congratulatory narratives.

Yeah, the part of me that loves classic Heroscape has always given the game a pass on this because of its all-ages, kid-friendly nature, but there's always been another part of me that is disappointed with how the game is just another example of how our culture patronizes children and does not expect them to be capable of understanding complexity or nuance.

I forget who said it, but they put it best when they said, "Most Americans like to think of the U.S. like Superman. The rest of the world sees the U.S. more like Batman."

Last edited by Sherman Davies; September 25th, 2022 at 11:55 AM.
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  #19  
Old September 25th, 2022, 11:47 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas View Post
Since its been mentioned that the new cards will have photos of their minis that are not painted--but in the color of their General I expect, like the minis--there will in effect be no "Official" paint scheme, so there will certainly be wild variations.
Can I get a source on this? Last I heard (from the CVN Q&A thread), there will be a colored image on the card.
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  #20  
Old September 25th, 2022, 11:58 AM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Skywhale,

Don't recall. But "Colored" may refer to the tint of the minis in their General color, as I mentioned. Which is not the same thing as "Painted."
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  #21  
Old September 25th, 2022, 12:03 PM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Sherman Davies,

Good one! Would that be the original Kane/Finger Batman, or the Frank Miller Batman? (Hopefully not the Adam West TV Batman).
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  #22  
Old September 25th, 2022, 01:08 PM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Yeah, the part of me that loves classic Heroscape has always given the game a pass on this because of its all-ages, kid-friendly nature, but there's always been another part of me that is disappointed with how the game is just another example of how our culture patronizes children and does not expect them to be capable of understanding complexity or nuance.

I forget who said it, but they put it best when they said, "Most Americans like to think of the U.S. like Superman. The rest of the world sees the U.S. more like Batman."
Hee hee, that's so perfect.
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  #23  
Old September 25th, 2022, 01:59 PM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
Very thought-provoking, @chas . Thanks for taking the time to compose your thoughts on this in such detail.

I must confess, I don't mind the lack of obvious heroes in the new previews, since it avoids what was, for me, an eyeroll-worthy aspect of the original design: the flag-waving, white-washing American patriotism of classic 'Scape.

So the American bluecoats (4th Mass & Sam Brown) and the American GI's (Drake & Airborne Elite) just happen to be on the same side as the knights-in-shining-armor (Knights of Weston) and the lily-white, blond-haired flying knights-in-shining-armor (Sentinels & Concan) and their lily-white, blond-haired "We fight only defensive wars!" cheerleader (Raelin)? Gee willickers, what a coincidence!

While the Bluecoats' opponents (the 10th Reg) and the various Japanese military units all just happen to follow the same — and less valiant — general, Einar?

Uh huh. I see how this is going.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. But honestly, I'd rather have no heroes than heroes who so patently feed into our self-congratulatory narratives.
It's also valuable to note the general shift away from "The Hero" in entertainment media over the last decade. We've been seeing much more focus placed on anti-heroes (Deadpool), grey characters (Game of Thrones, The Witcher), and even villains (Maleficent). The idea of The Hero is, I'd say, on the back-burner of the greater entertainment industry, and we can chalk up a few reasons for this trend:
  • "The Hero" has been done. We have Superman, Luke Skywalker, Samwise Gamgee, Link, Mario, Harry Potter - so many characters painted from the get-go as The Hero working for a greater good. Now, in post-modern times, we're shying away from The Hero archetype to explore the idea that not every character is completely, purely good. What might their irredeemable qualities look like, and how can those qualities be brought to the forefront of the character's portrayal?
  • The cultural trend of political correctness urges entertainment media to view the world through others' perspectives. Maleficent breaks away from the idea that she's The Villain from the classic Sleeping Beauty story, and in portraying her background and seeing the world through her eyes, she was granted a level of humanity we hadn't seen or thought about. Game of Thrones takes this same idea and runs with it. Where Lord of the Rings highlights the Good vs. Evil (for the sake of evil) trope, Game of Thrones presents most characters as being simultaneously a hero and a villain, done so by giving the audience a look through each character's perspective rather than painting everyone as either inherently good or bad.
  • Keeping the previous points in mind, the entertainment media industry realized that The Grey Character is the trend that sells, and I think this is the case because the current audience views The Grey Character with more interest. There's a level of complexity and - more importantly - relatability that can be showcased with a morally ambiguous character compared to The Hero and The Villain. The Last of Us parts I and II are exactly this point. Joel and Ellie (and the many characters they meet along their journeys) are far more interesting (and believable, and relatable) as Grey Characters, and the impact of the stories wouldn't be nearly as effective if every character was presented as either The Hero or The Villain.

I suppose, at the end of the day in 2022, I'm not at all surprised to not see (many) AoA factions or units being portrayed as The Hero (aside from their unique hero status). To me, AH and the War Council are just following the trend of the times.

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  #24  
Old September 25th, 2022, 03:26 PM
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Re: Heroscape 2.0 and Halloween: On Gaming Moral Sensibiliti

I'm excited about some of the new IP being generated. Being born under the Sagittarius sign I've long held a fascination with Centaurs. Combined that with my Celtic genes love Druids, and my Viking genes love of woodland spirits, and you can see why the Moose/Deer centaur troops/faction are of great interest to me. Being a big fan of both Pirates and Sci-Fi, the space pirates also are intriguing even if I have scratched that itch before. Grew up reading the Narnia books, so talking animals being forced into fighting a war also hits a familiar note, combining that with Steam-Punk makes it a win. That all said, I do find myself yearning for some new units from the old familiar wheelhouse that once populated Scape. Most notably the units from our history, as world history is another one of my interests, and the Kyrie themselves. I do have enough elves, dwarves, orcs, and dragon mini's that I'm not pining for more of that stuff. The first edition gave me enough of those units to sate my appetite.
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