C3G Dredd'verse workshop

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Tornado

The problem with Mutant is that is where she will play best instead of with the Bounty Hunters. Leaning more towards Lawman for that same reason.

Not necessarily. Granted, the Mutants will always be a valid build for her, but depending on how the Bounty Hunters are set up, they could easily be made the better team for her. In fact, if you make her a Lawman, the ability to shoot twice from range will already make her really want to pair up with Jonah Hex for that Fancy Shooting bonus. Just because Whirlwind's a Mutant doesn't mean he's not just as likely to turn up in a Criminal build. She could easily be an option for the Mutants, and a go-to for Bounty Hunters.

Plus, thematically, it sounds like she'd fit in as well with the X-Men as any Mutant. As @laughing matter said years ago:

Originally Posted by laughing matter

I agree.
-x men mutants= persecuted, hated sub species of humanity who get powers from the x gene
-200AD mutants= persecuted, hated sub species of humanity who get powers from nuclear fallout.

Seems pretty similar to me.

Thematically, it feels like they'd work together.

[Tornado]

Durham Red would be the one hunting down the Brotherhood and the X-Men, she is a mutant who hunts mutants.

Though if she met up with the Brotherhood at a young age instead of the SDs, I could see her joining. This version represents her in the prime of her bounty hunting days.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Durham Red would be the one hunting down the Brotherhood and the X-Men, she is a mutant who hunts mutants.

Though if she met up with the Brotherhood at a young age instead of the SDs, I could see her joining. This version represents her in the prime of her bounty hunting days.

Yeah, but you're not deciding for one character, you're setting a precedent for 2000AD Mutants in general, who are called Mutants and are discriminated against in a similar way to Marvel Mutants. Also, aren't the Strontium Dogs themselves Mutants?
Also, I'd be surprised if 'Mutant who hunts Mutants' wasn't represented by a Mutant in Marvel too.

[IAmBatman]

Bishop in his early days, maybe?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Bishop in his early days, maybe?

I do definitely recall him behaving that way in the X-Men cartoons... before reforming in 2.5 seconds when he was deemed to be 'no longer needed'. Didn't know if that was comic accurate.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Yeah, but you're not deciding for one character, you're setting a precedent for 2000AD Mutants in general, who are called Mutants and are discriminated against in a similar way to Marvel Mutants. Also, aren't the Strontium Dogs themselves Mutants?
Also, I'd be surprised if 'Mutant who hunts Mutants' wasn't represented by a Mutant in Marvel too.

This actually hurts your argument...that would mean every "mutant" from 2000AD would have to be designed with restrictions and limits based on fitting in that web. Not to mention some characters may be tied down since a few would be too close to existing mutants to be worth the hassle.

If anything I'd go with bats suggestion and make them mutations...

Someone once made a comment to me on a different subject but it works....I can call myself a banana, but that doesn't make me a banana.

Same situation here...All the authors of 2000AD can call their characters whatever they want...but for C3G what we have settled on for the definition of Mutants...they don't fit.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm ... there's an idea ....

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

This actually hurts your argument...that would mean every "mutant" from 2000AD would have to be designed with restrictions and limits based on fitting in that web. Not to mention some characters may be tied down since a few would be too close to existing mutants to be worth the hassle.

If anything I'd go with bats suggestion and make them mutations...

Someone once made a comment to me on a different subject but it works....I can call myself a banana, but that doesn't make me a banana.

Same situation here...All the authors of 2000AD can call their characters whatever they want...but for C3G what we have settled on for the definition of Mutants...they don't fit.

I'd just repeat this:

Originally Posted by laughing matter

I agree.
-x men mutants= persecuted, hated sub species of humanity who get powers from the x gene
-200AD mutants= persecuted, hated sub species of humanity who get powers from nuclear fallout.

Seems pretty similar to me.

And this:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'm also strongly, strongly in favour of her being a Mutant rather than a Mutate. I know she doesn't have the X-Gene, but still:
1) Most Mutant synergy is social rather than genetic, and she absolutely fits on that level and any remaining minor abnormalities can be explained with comic-book science.
2) They're always referred to as Mutants in universe.
3) I can't even find a wiki reference referring to 'Mutates' the way I can with Image.
4) We made Liz Sherman and Blanka Human, for heaven's sake, not as though Mutate is actually a standard for powered Human - it's universe-centric. Otherwise there's no logic behind DC having Metahumans, Marvel having Mutates and Blanka being a Human. If they're known as Mutants in universe, they are Mutants.
5) She's even listed as a Mutant on Comic Vine, distinguishing her from the likes of Brit, Spider-Woman and Black Canary, listed as Human. She is so definitely a Mutant. It feels disingenuous to the source material to call her a Mutate. We really ought to accept the melting-pot nature of the game rather than manipulate things and be inaccurate in order to keep things segregated.

Plus, if a figure is too close to an existing design, that's a problem anyway, regardless of whether they're both Mutants or not. And I'm sorry, I don't accept that whether a figure is defined as a Mutant or a Mutate or whatever is based on empirical C3G, cross universal decisions rather than being based on a given universe. Otherwise, DC wouldn't have their own personal definition of Metahuman, and Blanka sure as hell wouldn't count as a Human.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'd just repeat this:

Except Tornado stated that she and her buddies would be hunting magneto and his group.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

And I'm sorry, I don't accept that whether a figure is defined as a Mutant or a Mutate or whatever is based on empirical C3G, cross universal decisions rather than being based on a given universe. Otherwise, DC wouldn't have their own personal definition of Metahuman, and Blanka sure as hell wouldn't count as a Human.

I'm not seeing what you are arguing here. C3G defined "mutant" in our system to be X-gene mutants...there have been other Marvel characters that were called "mutants" of their species...yet we didn't make them mutants.

DC makes no distinction between birth powers of acquired powers and in universe there isn't a reason to separate them so the term they use in universe, metahuman, works fine.

Mutant is a mechanical term used in C3G to distinguish X-gene characters from ALL other groups. Regardless of universe.

So not to be blunt but in this case your acceptance isn't the keystone of the project.

This is probably the fifth time this argument has come about and at some point it would be nice to not have the same arguments over and over.

[Yodaking]

I never thought when we used the word 'mutant' it meant X-gene carrier as defined by Marvel comics only. If that is your interpretation then that is fine, but I never had that impression and I've been with the project for a long time. I don't understand why you are so passionately against having someone not from a Marvel comic book being a mutant. The thought that Prof. X or Magneto would encounter a mutant from another planet or another dimensions and go, "Hey, you're not from Marvel Earth 616 so even though you're a mutant too I won't have anything to do with you." seems thematically incorrect to me. Their whole shtick is that they are against discrimination against mutants, they just have different opinions on how to deal with it. Maybe we shouldn't be calling her a lawman either, she should be a lawwoman, I mean classic completely screwed the warwitch out of all the warlord synergy after all.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I never thought when we used the word 'mutant' it meant X-gene carrier as defined by Marvel comics only. If that is your interpretation then that is fine, but I never had that impression and I've been with the project for a long time. I don't understand why you are so passionately against having someone not from a Marvel comic book being a mutant. The thought that Prof. X or Magneto would encounter a mutant from another planet or another dimensions and go, "Hey, you're not from Marvel Earth 616 so even though you're a mutant too I won't have anything to do with you." seems thematically incorrect to me. Their whole shtick is that they are against discrimination against mutants, they just have different opinions on how to deal with it. Maybe we shouldn't be calling her a lawman either, she should be a lawwoman, I mean classic completely screwed the warwitch out of all the warlord synergy after all.

Well as someone who has been with the project for a long time I'm shocked that you are labeling this as MY Argument. This has been an argument that has occurred many...many times. Some predate us. I'm just sticking to the principles as they've been discussed and agreed upon by those before me.


If I'm coming across as passionate it's that I'm really tired of rehashing the same arguments every couple of months especially when the LD himself has already stated that she doesn't fit in with those...


Also the argument that Magneto would side with all that are persecuted is bunk as well...You don't see a lot of people in BLM fighting for Hispanic or Middle Eastern people that are discriminated against...Magneto fights for "his kind"


Also if we want to get really technical...Why is Professor X limited to activating 2 Mutants...does his telepathy not work as well with non mutants...Of course not but it's a system that has worked since the early days of C3G and I'm not really wanting to be quick to crap on it.


Certain things I do think should be preserved but there are a ton of things (about half of what's in discussion now) that I could care less about and don't think they are really needed...but those are opinions and lots of people are excited so I do my duty for the good of the team and make sure I don't see any mechanical issues. As long as one of these figures doesn't mess up an existing figure or cause an issue with costing a future figure I'm happy to help however I can. I'm not the competitive guy...I'm the thematic guy. As long as a figure plays at least as well in their thematic build as they do in one of the competitive builds I'm perfectly fine...


So lets stop pretending this is my argument and I've single-handily held this back from changing...Look at the freaking Ninja Turtles...that discussion started probably before I was even a sidekick...

[Lazy Orang]

The Ninja Turtles, IMO, were never actually a problem - they mutated from Turtles, so using Turtle as a species was fine, there was no need to make them Mutants or Mutates. Feels more iconic to make them Turtles anyway, IMO.