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  #853  
Old July 28th, 2013, 02:02 AM
BurnyFlame BurnyFlame is offline
 
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

BurnyFlame's PlayTest of 500 points for:
Team TMNT:
Leonardo (130 points)
Raphael (130 points)
Michelangelo (120 points)
Donatello (120 points)

vs.
Ninjas and Agents:
Agent Carr (100 points)
Agent Skahen (120 points)
Krav Maga Agents (100 points)
Moriko (110 points)
Shiori (60 points)
Otonashi (10 points)

Battlefield: Custom, small, mostly flat. In middle left, three shadow spaces next to small high ground. In middle right, a random glyph next to a large glacier with a single tile adjacent to each end of glacier.

Game 1:
Round 1: (*Note: Turtle's Initiative roll always listed first. W stands for Wound. SA stands for Special Attack.)
Init. 5(+4) vs. 16
Otonashi with Tricky Speed moves adjacent to Wild Mike, 2/4 v 2/4.
Leo moves all Turtles to middle, ignoring Otonashi.
Agent Skahen fires 2/3 v 2/5 on Don, then 2/3 v 1/5 on Don (1W). Carr moves up to high ground under Cover Fire.
Leo reaches higher ground on Carr, 4/8 v 2/4 (2W).
Krav fire 2/3 v 0/5 on Leo (2W), 1 v 1 on Leo, 2/3 v 0/5 on Leo (2W=Out)
Mike Cowabunga's to take Leo's spot, 4/8 v 1/4 on Carr (Out).

Round 2:
Init. 8(+8) vs. 3
Raph moves, Sai Fury SA on adjacent Krav, 2/3 v 2/3, 1/3 v 3/3.
Krav move adjacent to Don on Shadow, 2 v 1 on Don (1W), 2 v 2/5 on Mike with height, 3 v 1/4 on Raph on adjacent shadow (2W). Raph deals his Wrath of Raph, destroying adjacent Krav.
Mike Cowabunga's to Skahen, 4/6 v 0/3 (Out).
Moriko moves adjacent to Raph, 0/3 and 1/3 v 1/4 on Raph.
Don 1 v 0/4 on Krav.
Skahen loses a turn.

Round 3:
Init. 17(+4) vs. 17 -- Don uses second marker to see treasure glyph is Atk +1. Recap: Raph=2W, Don=2W.
Raph SA 3/3 v 0/4 on Moriko (3W), 1/3 v 2/4, she stays alive.
Moriko SA right back with 0/3, 1/3 v 1/4 on Raph.
Mike repositions next to Raph, Shiori, and Moriko, uses Nunchuks SA, 0/2 on Moriko, 2/2 v 1/4 on Shiori (1W), then ATTACKS RAPH TO TRY TO ACTIVATE WRATH ON MORIKO, but gets 0/2.
Moriko SA 2/3 v 1/4 on Raph (1W), 3/3 v 0/4 on Raph (Out).
Don 3/4 v 1/4 on Moriko (2W=Out).
Shiori moves to single tile height, Shuriken SA on Don, 2/3 v 3/5.

Round 4:
Init. 19 (+12) vs. 4.
Don backtracks to try to get the +1 Atk Treasure Glyph he knows about, but activate the trap with a roll of 4 and can not pick it up.
Shiori fires a Shuriken SA at Mike, 1/3 v 2/4.
Don comes back with his Bo Reach SA on Shiori at Range 2 (to avoid adjacent height advantage), 3/3 v 2/4 on Shiori (1W).
Shiori considers moving down to finish Don with 4 attack dice (from Concentrated Will, but stays on height advantage and fires a Shuriken, 2/3 v 1/5 (1W).
Mike moves 3 spaces to the last Krav, 3/6 v 0.
Otonashi wants to attack Mike, but can only reach Don, 1/2 v 2/5.

Round 5:
Init 4(+12) vs. 3.
Mike moves back in front of Don, adjacent to Shiori who is still on height, 2?/6 v 2/4.
Otonashi attacks Mike, 1/4 v 2/4.
Don 2/4 v 1/3 on Otonashi (Out).
Shiori 2/4 v 1/4 on Mike (1W)
Don moves adjacent to Shiori for Turtle Power, 3/4 v 2/4 (Out).

Team TMNT WINS (Don=3W, Mike=1W).
----------------------------------------------
Game 2:
Round 1: Init. 6(+0) vs. 19. -- Don sees glyph is Team +1 Defense Bonus.
(Note: This time, I will try to get Leo more involved on Team TMNT and lead with the shooters for the Agents.)
Krav, with all order markers, move to 7 Range of the Turtles, 3 v 1/5 on Don (2W), 1 v 4/5 on Don, 0/3 on Raph.
Leo lands on glyph, uses Leadership to put Mike on single tile height, Raph and Don to shadow. This puts a target on Leo's back.
Krav fire everything at Leo, 0/3, 2/3 v 1/5 (1W), 3/4 v 0/5 (3W=Out).
Leo loses a turn.
Kravs move to height and grab the glyph, 1 v 0/5 on Mike (1W), 4/4 v 2/6 on adjacent Don (2W), 1/4 v 0/4 on Mike (1W).
Raph moves to height next to a Krav, Sai Fury SA 2/3 v 2/4, 1/3 v 0/4 (lucky for Raph).

Round 2: Init. 12(+4) vs 3.
Mike Cowabunga's and Turtle Power's as he moves to shadow next to a Krav on shadow, 3/7 v 3/5 (blocked!).
Carr sneaks in, 5/6 v 2/5 on Mike (3W=Out).
Raph drops down to Shadow for a SA on Carr, 3/3 v 2/5 (1W), 2/3 v 1/5 (1W), 1/3 v 3/5.
Carr retaliates with 4/6 v 3/5 on Raph (1W).
Raph tries his SA again, 0/3.
With all Turtles on shadow, Skahen is forced to move adjacent, 1/3 v 2/5 on Raph, 1/3 v 4/6 on Don.

Round 3: Init. 9(+8) vs. 3. (Recap: Leo/Mike out, Raph 1W, Don 2W; Carr 2W)
Raph SA on Carr, 2/3 v 2/5. 2/3 v 2/5, 3/3 v 2/5 (1W), 3/3 v 3/5, 0/3.
Carr, barely hanging on thanks to the team +1 Def glyph, uses his Sword of Reckoning on Raph, 4/6 v 1/5 (3W), but infuriates Raph's Wrath and receives his last wound (Out).
Raph moves to height, 0/5 on Moriko.
Moriko SA on Don, 3/3 v 2/5 (1W), 2/3 v 2/6.
Don moves up as well, 4/5 v 1/4 on a Krav.
Moriko SA on Don, 2/3 v 2/6, 2/3 v 3/6.

Round 4: 2(+8) vs 8.
Raph 3/5 v 1/5 on Moriko (2W).
Moriko 1 v 1 on Don, twice.
Raph again goes 3/5 with height/Turtle Power on Moriko, who again rolls 1/5 (2W=Out).
Skahen shoots at the Turtles who have height, 2/3 v 0/5 on Raph (2W=Out), 1/3 v 3/6 on Don.
Don moves down to take out the last Krav on the glyph, 1/3 v 0/4.
Shiori Phantom Walks through Don to reach the newly unoccupied glyph, 1 v 1 on Don.

Round 5. 11(+16) vs 10.
Don with height goes 2/4 v 2/4 on Skahen.
Skahen safely leaves engagement and lands on shadow, firing at Don 1/3 v 1/6 and 2/3 v 1/6 (1W=Out).

Team TMNT LOSES (Agent Skahen, Shiori, Otonashi left).
----------------------------------------------
Game 3:
Round 1: Init. 3(+0) vs. 16. -- Don sees Treasure glyph is Giant Killer (and therefore useless this match).
(Note: I still want to get Leo more involved on Team TMNT, but I'll try to play safer, keeping the Turtles in shadow to avoid ranged attacks, and I'll lead with the Skahen for the Agents.)
Skahen moves up and fires twice at Mike, 2/3 v 1/4 (1W), 1/3 v 0/4 (1W).
Leo moves to height, and Leads Raph and Don to shadow, while Mike hides out of shooting range behind a glacier.
Skahen, knowing she'll be surrounded soon, goes for the Treasure glyph and gets it (rolls 9), but is disappointed. Can only fire at Leo who has height, 3/3 v 2/5 (1W), 2/3 v 3/5. Raph moves to use maximum Turtle Power on Skahen, 1/6 v 1/3, and is also disappointed.
Otonashi wants to use her Tricky speed to go through everyone, and with a movement of 10, can get all the way adjacent to Mike, and she Attacks the Wild, wounded Mike with 2/4 on 0/4 (2W=Out).
Leo moves adjacent to Skahen, 4/6 v 2/3 (2W), and she survives.

Round 2: Init 11(+4) vs 14 (!).
Leo FINALLY gets to use his Katana Slash SA on Skahen, 4/6 v 2/3 (Out).
Full squad of Krav keep their distance, 1/3 v 0/4 on Raph (1W), 2/3 v 1/4 on Leo (1W), 1/4 v 1/4 on Raph.
Raph retaliates on a Krav he can reach (but who has height), and uses his Sai Fury SA to go 3/3 v 2/4, then throws his Sai at Shiori, 2/3 v 2/4, who blocks with her X order marker Concentrated Will bonus.
With two Kravs left, first attacks Raph, 2/3 v 0/4 (2W), then 0/3 on Leo.
Leo moves adjacent to Moriko, and with Turtle Power, goes 2/6 v 0/4 (2W).
Carr moves to Shadow next to Don, attacks 2/6 v 2/6.

Round 3: Init 15(+4) vs. 14.
Leo Katana SA on Moriko, 1/6 v 1/4, who blocks it with her Sabers.
Moriko continues the sword duel with a 0/3 and 2/3 v 2/4 on Leo.
Raph moves to shadow next to Don to be ready for Wrath, but rolls 0/3 on his SA.
Carr moves up to height, 4/7 v 2/6 on Don (2W), but Raph whiffs the Wrath roll (say that 3 times fast).
Leo moves back to help his brother, and next to Raph, attacks Carr who still has height, 1/6 v 2/5.
Carr makes Leo pay for his interference with 3/7 v 1/4 (2W=Out), but takes a wound from Wrath of Raph.

Round 4: Init. 11(+8) vs 5.
Raph moves higher than Carr by moving through him, goes 1/5 v 1/4.
Carr moves level with Raph on the map's highest ground, rolls 2/6 v 2/4.
Don leaves the epic ledge battle to the titans, and goes to try and take out a nearby Krav, 1/3 v 1/3.
Krav's fire back, 0/4 and 2/3 v 1/5 on Don (1W).
Raph, still fighting against Carr, tries his SA for 1/3 v 1/4.
Moriko uses her Saber Storm Ninja skills and attacks Don with 2/2 v 1/5 (1W), 1/1 v 0/5 (1W), and 2/3 v 1/5 (extra1W=Out).

Round 5: 5 vs. 1.
Raph tries to make a comeback, uses his Sai Fury on Carr, 2/3 v 1/4 (1W), 2/3 v 0/4 (Out), then throws his Sai at Moriko at Range 5, 2/3 v 3/4, but she saw it coming.
The two Kravs move up, and shoot down Raph from his perch.

Team TMNT LOSES (2 Krav Maga Agents, Shiori, Otonashi, Moriko left).
----------------------------------------------

Thoughts:
1. Team TMNT is not overpowered. The team they fought against here was not particularly strong, but they were evenly matched, if not lacking in some area.
2. Team TMNT cannot keep glyphs. As with most all hero teams, there are no squad members to simply sit on glyphs, that keeps Team TMNT from being elite.
3. Team TMNT needs a little help, but that is OK. That is where other supporting members should come in. Splinter (at 100 points or less), needs to give the Turtles a defensive bonus. It can be Counterstrike, extra dice, dice rerolls, or somehow a "rescue" akin to Alfred Pennyworth. Likewise for April.


-Leonardo's Leadership bonus is great, but he needs to remember not to simply move the Turtles towards the battle; sometimes keeping their distance is best. Also, he is a great attacker, and should not put himself in harm's way and cost his team because of the rest lack his attack power. His Special Attack is not overpowered for sure, since he can get 6 on a normal attack rather easily, and it is easy to avoid his SA because he can't move.
-Raphael's skills felt right. He could deal damage, attack multiple times, throw his Sai, and retaliate. I need to remember to keep him adjacent to his teammates to utilize his Wrath more often. Also, I once tried to attack him with a friendly figure to generate his Wrath, do we want this mechanism, or should we reword the power?
-Michelangelo, when played optimally, was the Team's MVP (MVT?). With his bonuses stacking, he was taking out one figure, often a hero, each turn. But I did find his Special Attack extremely lacking, and I think it could be boosted to Attack of 3 with no harm done. Or somehow if we can get his Cowabunga to stack into it, that would be great.
-Donatello did his job. He often survived the longest due to his extra defense, and his Turtle Tech gave Team TMNT the initiative whenever they wanted it. It could be dialed down to a "+3" bonus per order marker, but I think it is fine either way.
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  #854  
Old July 28th, 2013, 12:56 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

I think the turtles are in pretty good shape. They have to be played just right, but squads don't stand a chance and that's what they will normally fight. I think they are ready. How many more playtests do you say we need?
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  #855  
Old July 31st, 2013, 04:27 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

I never knew Uncle Phil was also Shredder!

Watching that interview and they threw up lots of clips from the show. In one such clip Mickey is spinning his nun-chucks and deflecting a bunch of ninja stars and other ranged attacks. If you guys end up tweaking the designs at all in favor of more defense, Mickey could get some kind of defense boost vs. ranged attacks (when unengaged) to represent this.

Also I have been meaning to bring this up. I don't really like the range 2 attack for Don's SA. His Bo staff just isn't that long. It is at best as tall as he is or he would not be able to spin it vertically without hitting the ground. The Turtles were all fairly short, maybe 5' tall. I believe each hex is about 6' wide though so having Don reach out 2 hexes away to strike at someone just is not plausible. The reason the Spearmen have a reach power is because their spears are almost twice as tall as the humans holding them are. If the humans are on average 5' 6", then those spears they wield are about 9' long. Don does not spin a 9' long Bo staff about.
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  #856  
Old July 31st, 2013, 05:27 PM
BurnyFlame BurnyFlame is offline
 
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I never knew Uncle Phil was also Shredder!

Watching that interview and they threw up lots of clips from the show. In one such clip Mickey is spinning his nun-chucks and deflecting a bunch of ninja stars and other ranged attacks. If you guys end up tweaking the designs at all in favor of more defense, Mickey could get some kind of defense boost vs. ranged attacks (when unengaged) to represent this.

Also I have been meaning to bring this up. I don't really like the range 2 attack for Don's SA. His Bo staff just isn't that long. It is at best as tall as he is or he would not be able to spin it vertically without hitting the ground. The Turtles were all fairly short, maybe 5' tall. I believe each hex is about 6' wide though so having Don reach out 2 hexes away to strike at someone just is not plausible. The reason the Spearmen have a reach power is because their spears are almost twice as tall as the humans holding them are. If the humans are on average 5' 6", then those spears they wield are about 9' long. Don does not spin a 9' long Bo staff about.
Interesting interview, I did not know the voice actor before.
-------------------
But I have to disagree with you on the Don thing. The Range 2 Special Attack was a compromise based on the fact we could not agree on a "Bo Trip" ability, but more than that, it makes sense and is quite plausible for the character.

The Bo Reach Special Attack incorporates Don's ability to lunge and use his skills to maximize his distance away from his opponent in combat; it is not just a measure of the length of the bo. His weapon surely has the longest range of all the Turtles, and we are still keeping his normal attack at Range 1. We just wanted to give each of the Turtles a Special Attack, and we considered an anti-Soulborg one and some others, but this one seems balanced and not overpowered.

If you don't buy that, then just consider Don is using his brains, perhaps by using a gadget in his bo to give it an extension. In some new episodes I believe he even has blades come out the ends. Either way, he is smart, and having a Range 2 attack is a smart move to have, and is well within his capabilities. But if you have a better idea, please share.

Note: I am not against changing it if we can make it better. Right now, Raphael's SA is straight up better in every situation, as his SA is Range 5. Don's could/should be better in some cases, even if it becomes niche.

Last edited by BurnyFlame; July 31st, 2013 at 05:34 PM.
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  #857  
Old July 31st, 2013, 06:15 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Don does have the weakest offensive output IMO and I never really considered attacking with him until he was the last one left. I could see giving him a double attack of 3 SA so he can clear out swarms reliably.

That would give him an offensive role while representing his ability to spin about the Bo staff and strike out at different angles. Maybe even have it lower the targets defense by 1 to account for it being difficult to block/avoid. Right now Mickey can attack all adj. figures, but with only 2 dice and no one figure more than once. Ralph can attack multiple times with 3 dice but only if he rolls at least 2 skulls with his first attack. Only rolling 1 or 0 skulls on 3 dice is not that uncommon, the ranged component makes this a real nice SA though. Don would be capped at just the 2 attacks where Ralph & Mickey can hit more than 2 figures but are less reliable (Ralph) or powerful (Mickey).

JF keeps saying they are great vs. squads but that was not my experience at all. They were easily dropped by the common squad bonded hero army, played the an even match vs. the single figure bonded heroes, and beat the Hero army. I'm still hoping to see some tests with them against the Classic Scape Steam Roller, Dwarves, or Heavy Gruts to see just how they stack up with the classic 500 point bonded hero armies.

Just something to think about while we wait for more tests to roll in.
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  #858  
Old July 31st, 2013, 06:16 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
About 2 years ago I bought the first 5 seasons for my son's birthday and after one episode my wife says "that voice sounds familiar" so I asked my best friend Google and sure enough...Uncle Phil. At least for the first few seasons, I think it changed somewhere along the way.

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  #859  
Old August 1st, 2013, 10:16 AM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Don does have the weakest offensive output IMO and I never really considered attacking with him until he was the last one left. I could see giving him a double attack of 3 SA so he can clear out swarms reliably.

That would give him an offensive role while representing his ability to spin about the Bo staff and strike out at different angles. Maybe even have it lower the targets defense by 1 to account for it being difficult to block/avoid. Right now Mickey can attack all adj. figures, but with only 2 dice and no one figure more than once. Ralph can attack multiple times with 3 dice but only if he rolls at least 2 skulls with his first attack. Only rolling 1 or 0 skulls on 3 dice is not that uncommon, the ranged component makes this a real nice SA though. Don would be capped at just the 2 attacks where Ralph & Mickey can hit more than 2 figures but are less reliable (Ralph) or powerful (Mickey).
I think I like the idea of changing Don's Special Attack to deal more damage (2 attacks of 3, but range 1). I like how it compares with the other Turtles SAs as you mentioned. What should we call it?

-Bo Staff Special Attack
-Bo Special Attack
-Spinning Bo Special Attack
-Quick Bo Special Attack
-Purple Haze Special Attack . . .
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  #860  
Old August 1st, 2013, 10:29 AM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

I like that also. I was thinking more along the lines of allowing him to attack all adjacent figures with his SA but the more I think about it the more I like two attacks of 3.

Good point about the length of Don's staff, YK. I used to practice quite a bit with a quaterstaff and anything longer than your height was cumbersome. I preferred mine about an inch shorter than me(plus that was the biggest it could be and fit in the trunk of my 1980 Cutlass Calais).

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  #861  
Old August 1st, 2013, 11:18 AM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Don's biggest bonus IMHO is the initiative builder.

The Bo Reach was a compromise and a decent one but if we're starting to sway, and I think we are, remember having the ability to clear out swarms before giving the swarms the same chance to attack should up the cost and we were trying to keep these guys are the 500 mark (although I'm not sure I'm entirely sold on that anymore).

That being said, having a one attack manuever per round that's stronger could easily be another thought.

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Last edited by AMIS; August 1st, 2013 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Spinning Bo attack could be the same as Raelin's...
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  #862  
Old August 1st, 2013, 03:55 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIS View Post
Don's biggest bonus IMHO is the initiative builder.

The Bo Reach was a compromise and a decent one but if we're starting to sway, and I think we are, remember having the ability to clear out swarms before giving the swarms the same chance to attack should up the cost and we were trying to keep these guys are the 500 mark (although I'm not sure I'm entirely sold on that anymore).

That being said, having a one attack manuever per round that's stronger could easily be another thought.
I still want to keep them at 500 points as well, AMIS. Perhaps we could lower Don's Initiative bonus to +3 (each) if we give him the double special attack. I believe right now the Turtles are not worth 500, mostly because of the low defense, and would easily lose to any squad army.

That said, what if we reduced their defense even further, but added back the Turtle Power defense bonus? For instance, Leo would have a Defense of only 3, but max out at 6 with the +3 Turtle Power from his brothers. I assume Splinter will be giving them Counterstrike training, right? Maybe that would be enough instead of a Defense boost.
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  #863  
Old August 1st, 2013, 04:44 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Not a fan of all the counterstrike talk. In Classic the Samurai had counterstrike, it was pretty iconic for them while the Ninja had some form of ghost walk. These guys are the TMNinjaT and they have their own version of ghost walk (which works great with their potential for a big attack). But that debate is for another time.
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  #864  
Old August 1st, 2013, 06:16 PM
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Re: Heroes of Ninja Turtle 'Scape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnyFlame View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIS View Post
Don's biggest bonus IMHO is the initiative builder.

The Bo Reach was a compromise and a decent one but if we're starting to sway, and I think we are, remember having the ability to clear out swarms before giving the swarms the same chance to attack should up the cost and we were trying to keep these guys are the 500 mark (although I'm not sure I'm entirely sold on that anymore).

That being said, having a one attack manuever per round that's stronger could easily be another thought.
I still want to keep them at 500 points as well, AMIS. Perhaps we could lower Don's Initiative bonus to +3 (each) if we give him the double special attack. I believe right now the Turtles are not worth 500, mostly because of the low defense, and would easily lose to any squad army.

That said, what if we reduced their defense even further, but added back the Turtle Power defense bonus? For instance, Leo would have a Defense of only 3, but max out at 6 with the +3 Turtle Power from his brothers. I assume Splinter will be giving them Counterstrike training, right? Maybe that would be enough instead of a Defense boost.

I'm definately not for the lowering of their defense for 2 reasons...

First, Once one falls they start getting a lot weaker very quickly and are no longer worth their individual cost.

Second, I don't plan on always using all four turtles...I would like to think someday I could do a Casey Jones and Raph combo and still be effective.

As far as Don, I'm good either way. He was always the weakest offensively but I wouldn't mind changing him...the are made to take out squads.

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
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