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  #385  
Old February 11th, 2022, 08:32 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Savage Corridor: It's not hard to say a map is great. Similarly, it's not hard to say a map is... less than great.

But it's REALLY hard to determine when a map is good enough. Savage Corridor lies right on the bubble for me.

Most of my concerns have already been addressed by my colleagues. First, I agree with superfrog's suggestion of including a ladder on each side to alleviate the little bit of two-hills problem it has. However, the two-hill issue is really minor, and this isn't a deal-breaker for me (and obviously wasn't one for superfrog either).

I was wondering if someone would bring up the immediate dips outside the starting zone. I am complete agreement with Flash that I'm not a fan of that. I think the map is large enough to do without them, and I found them very punishing for slow melee. Range can shoot down at figures for multiple turns before they have to choose between ceding height or being engaged. However, this also isn't a deal-breaker for me (and it obviously wasn't for Flash).

I really disliked the placement of the water. As dok accurately mentioned, it's almost always better to develop up the sides. The placement of the water to slow down central development would make sense if a rush works on this map. And I think a ranged rush can work on this map... assuming they're rushing up a side. Rushing the middle is not smart because it's too easy to get engaged. Taking a side, and the corresponding glyph, is a strong play by range because the road doesn't touch most of the height and doesn't threaten the glyph.

A small, but relevant, nit-pick is the placement of the glyphs. It's pretty easy to deny a double-spacer from taking a glyph. While this isn't the most relevant thing in the world, this can be pretty punishing to Hounds, who do like to take glyphs (indeed, they're one of the few units that will take just about any glyph in the standard pool given to them- their army will usually include at least one unique figure who benefits from Ulaniva).

Overall, this map works well. But I think it lacks something to make it stand out. As it is, it's a solid map that I've enjoyed and wouldn't really mind playing again. I don't have any quick fixes (beyond the ladders), but I think a revised version could flip my opinion from pretty good to really good. NO.
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  #386  
Old February 12th, 2022, 11:40 AM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Zephyr:
I second everything that OEAO said. Particularly with how the largest problem with this map is the obvious Raelin perch. That, by itself, is enough to downvote the map.

I’ll also add that I rarely see the top half of the map utilized (though this is matchup dependent). The time it takes to get up the hill and situated in a good spot seems to allow the opponent too much time to develop and take control of the more valuable real estate on the board — aka the quickest route to the opponent. There is also some potential up top for some double base denial (forcing an opponent’s double based figure to wait for an initiative switch to try and catch figures utilizing the highest hexes), but I doubt that will ever be a large issue.




The Swamps of Oighir Scath:
As HS2010 himself has pointed out, the map has some double base denial issues on the edges involving the glyphs. I want to see that issue fixed, along with some tweaks to the outside edges of the map in general. I feel like the map has a pull to the left out of the start zone, and with the way the sides are set up, podding up on the left feels like too much of a viable option. The map can get a little congested as well, but I think a smoother outside edge near the glyphs would go a long way to help alleviate problems with congestion.

I really like a lot about this map, but for now it’s a

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  #387  
Old February 12th, 2022, 01:29 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Flash told me he was about to withdraw Ashfall but I'm going to beat him to it.

Ashfall is a pretty good map. Lava and road are a good combo. But unfortunately the map doesn't allow you to move laterally except once you get to the middle section, and that can easily be clogged up. Too much molten lava in the development zones.

for me, hope to see it again once you rework it
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  #388  
Old March 11th, 2022, 12:18 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
After taking another look at it since the nomination, The Swamps of Oighir Scath has an issue where a double-spaced figure (or two single-spaced figures) standing on the glyph from the middle of the four level-1 Swamp/Ice spaces can prevent another double-spaced figure from ever engaging them.

If this isn’t deal breaking, great! If it is, I totally get it.
Finally getting around to reviewing this map and remembered this comment. I believe there is enough terrain left over from the combo to fix this issue in a few ways (either add a level 1 swamp water/ice hex to connect those little outside flow areas, this might require grabbing the grass hexes that sit under the single outcrops, or even just some leftover snow; or raising the entire glyph area to level 2 with said leftover snow; or shifting a level 3 snow hex outwards by a space to be adjacent to the glyph; or hack off the level 3 snow hex nearest the left SZ).

I do in general like this map but I think any of the suggestions above would improve it. I also sometimes wonder if the map is a bit chokey, it might benefit from losing an LoS blocker or two, or getting some extra breathing room around the edges.

to induct Swamps of Oighir Scath
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  #389  
Old March 26th, 2022, 11:09 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Submitting Arroyo.

Arroyo
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  #390  
Old March 27th, 2022, 02:18 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Arroyo: I tried this map last spring/summer, so this is an easy review to write. No glyphs is always a bit of a red flag, but a good map can make it work.

The first and most minor issue is that 4-move figures hate this map. It's really tough to develop up with 4-move figures (and it isn't particularly easy for 5-move figures either).

The middle isn't really a viable option- which is fine; I don't particularly enjoy maps that encourage a central rush.

The left central water lake is definitely too big. Lateral movement isn't that bad on this map, but the lake is a problem; range can really kite melee around it.

So the map boils down to the two sides. That setup can be fine if the sides are interesting. Here, the sides are basically just two flat slabs with a few pockets of height on them. The resulting gameplay lacks depth and difficult decisions.

Arroyo is a fine map, but it doesn't have what I'm looking for in a WoS map. No to induct.

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  #391  
Old March 27th, 2022, 05:40 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Arroyo by Sir Heroscape

I've played this map a bit too, so a quick review here is easy - especially when @OEAO has already summed up my main issues with the map. I have nothing new to add, but wanted to repeat the problems I found particularly troubling:

- 4 move figures really do struggle a lot on this map
- There is no incentive to go to the middle
- The lake to the front left (particularly when combined with the 3 movement required to get up to the plateau from level 1) is too hindering to melee units trying to reach ranged units on height
- Gameplay feels too stale

I wouldn't be sad to play the map at a local tournament, but I don't believe the map is as polished as it needs to be for the highest levels of play.


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  #392  
Old March 29th, 2022, 01:45 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by OEAO View Post
My criteria here is largely, “Would I include this map in the ScapeCon map pool?” If it fails this test, it gets a NO. If it passes this test, it gets a YES. Is this a very stringent test? Absolutely. But when I reached out to a few people (Dok, Flash, Superfrog) about restarting/forming a map group, this was the conceptual starting point.

Mole Hills: Big pool of water? Check. Mine-and-yours heights? Check. Bumpy terrain? Check. NO.

Arctic Divide: Memberberry 1: “Remember when the Fellowship tried to go over the Misty Mountains?” Memberberry 2: “Yeah, I ‘member!” NO.

Marr Highway: I actually think this is a really cool map. It has a unique layout, the heights aren’t that close to the starting zone, and the asymmetry works really well here. However, long and narrow maps aren’t good for tourney play. 3 rats can clog the entire middle with no problem, and bonding melee will take half the time just getting to the middle. NO.

Highways and Dieways: This is THE classic map. YES.

Ember Canyon Road: Ember Canyon NO.

The Broken Skyline: I haven’t played this one, but I just can’t see how it could work. Maybe I’ll try it in the future and love it, in which case I’ll nominate it again. For now, I’m comfortable voting no on a map where Airborne so obviously destroys melee. NO.

Ruins of Pine Tree Marsh: Bumpy, narrow passageways with elevated starting zones. NO.

Hot Heights: Arctic Divide on steroids. NO.

Swamp Thing: This is the map that started my crusade against two-hill maps. My opponent and I once opted to play a game of Summoner Wars to decide the outcome of a first-round tourney game on this map after 5 minutes of staring at each other from opposite sides of the board. NO.

Turret Rocks: Same criticism and thought process as The Broken Skyline. NO.

Embattled Fen: Is this map “bad” or imbalanced? No. Is it interesting? I don’t think so. It’s a fine map, but it doesn’t deserve a spot among the “best of the best.” NO.

Road Rampage: This is a weird map; it feels very unpolished. The big heights on the sides really hurt this map. I would love for someone to create a revised edition of this map (or an homage). NO.

Ice Blossom: This map is a mess. NO.

Flash Fire: This map is fine. However, much like Embattled Fen, it just isn’t particularly interesting. NO.

Badru Valley: Gollum: “Up, up, up the stairs we go, until we reach…” nothing, because my opponent went up the other hill. NO.

Ticalla Sunrise: Another classic. I’d be fine not playing on it again (probably because I've played on it more than any other map), but I think it does what it needs to do to be inducted.YES.

Sidewinder: As I said to Dok privately, this map seemed good just because of how much worse every other Tundra map was. NO.

Invasion: This map works for me. It’s not my favorite, but it’s balanced and quite solid. I love the Hive in the center. YES.

Fossil: This is the most subtle two-hill setup you’ll probably ever see. However, it still has the two-hill problem. I also think the sand 7-hex not adjacent to road is a problem; 4th Mass can just cheese the crap out of it. This is a tough one, but at the end of the day, I don’t think it’s one of the best of the best. NO.

Quasatch Playground: “Meh,” the Map. Development? Meh. Charge up the center? Meh. Semi-reasonable side pathing? Meh. Campiness? Meh. Much like Embattled Fen, this one just isn’t very interesting. NO.

Blackroot: This map has some issues. It has a two-hill problem, exacerbated by a much tougher development right than left. The road doesn’t do enough here. NO.

Fulcrum: I think this map is quite good. It’s not the MOST interesting, but I find it interesting enough. Dragons are pretty good, but I’ve beaten dragons with bonding melee on it. I’ve also beaten 10th Regiment on it with bonding melee. It’s probably the best map I’ve ever played with no glyphs on it. YES.

If You Can’t Take the Heat…: Apparently, I can’t take the heat. This map is very bad for bonding melee (#dokhatesgrimnak), and double-space denial is a major issue in the center. Range just pops up left and has instant height. I like that the lava heights are spread out (one of my pet peeves is “Oops All Lava” centers of maps), but it’s just way too tough for melee to traverse this map. NO.

Burial Marsh: I think this map is really solid. It’s not my favorite, but it works well enough. Development is a bit tough, but not impossible. Dragons are good, but can be beaten. YES.

Sirocco: This is quite possibly the most beautiful map I’ve ever seen. Unfortunately, it has a major two-hills problem, exacerbated by a noticeable push to the left. NO.

Stygian Rift: The classic lava map. YES.

Draugur: This map is really good. YES.

Dance of the Dryads: Not my favorite, but still a good map that I’d have no issue including in the map pool (see: GenCon 2019 map pool). YES.


WILL COME BACK LATER:

Fire Isles: Leaning no, but I want to try it again.

Can’t See the Jungle: I only played this once or twice back in the day. No current leaning.

Elswin Plateau: Legitimately not sure. Need to try it again. It looks like a mess, but there are some interesting decisions.

Bad Moon Rising: I finally played on this one for the first time in a decade. It’s quite good, but I want to get a few more games in on it.
I just saw this post and I agree so much with it especially with the two-hills problem.
Back in 2014~2015 I voiced a lot against Sirocco (in some neg-reg kinda post lol). I still can't understand how this map was included in BoV.
2 hills maps are okay if their hills are close to each other and not hard to attack into. A great two hill map example is Hellsgate.

The only changes I would do to your post are:
Flash Fire, Embattled Fen, Fossil --> NO to YES
They are not in my personal top 5, but maps that have been played that much and still proved to be solid should be included imo.
Fulcrum: YES to NO, can't really explain why, imo thinking what you have to do on this map depending on machup and army is too obvious.

Will have some games on Turnmoil (first games in 3 years yay) will tell you how it went, looks like a great map.

By the way, I won't submit it cause there is already too much maps under review, but we used Flooded Temple for the third time in french tournaments and for the third time in she delivered good playability, one guy had Airbone Elite and lost on it.


Last edited by Foudzing; March 29th, 2022 at 02:04 PM.
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  #393  
Old March 29th, 2022, 02:20 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

^Forgot about that map Foudzing (=Hellsgate)! One of my favorites...Submitting now!

Hellsgate
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  #394  
Old March 29th, 2022, 03:17 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Hmmm, that one also fell off my radar.

Went back and read the BoV reviews and the two NO votes actually came from current WoS judges (1Mmirg and Dignan). Both reviews seemed to think that the 7 hex was too strong for the map, especially compared to the 5 hex that opposes it if the game has collapsed to one hill.

Then again, some of the complaint was about not knowing glyphs ahead of time and being screwed over by setting up on a side with a crappy glyph. Modern tournament play usually reveals glyphs before placement which is what M_W intended and mitigates the issue significantly.

I think one big issue with the map is that the SZ split is exacerbated by the river, and the two SZ pods are very unequal in size.

Not feeling enough to vote at the moment but those are my initial thoughts.
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  #395  
Old March 30th, 2022, 04:34 AM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
^Forgot about that map Foudzing (=Hellsgate)! One of my favorites...Submitting now!

Hellsgate
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If I'm still a judge, I'll go on and vote Yes. It's one of my personal favorites, and one I played the most. Fast and action packed games, perfectly balanced melee vs range machups, all map used, no two hills problem.
It's basically my go-to map when I have playtests to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Hmmm, that one also fell off my radar.

Went back and read the BoV reviews and the two NO votes actually came from current WoS judges (1Mmirg and Dignan). Both reviews seemed to think that the 7 hex was too strong for the map, especially compared to the 5 hex that opposes it if the game has collapsed to one hill.

Then again, some of the complaint was about not knowing glyphs ahead of time and being screwed over by setting up on a side with a crappy glyph. Modern tournament play usually reveals glyphs before placement which is what M_W intended and mitigates the issue significantly.
Hmm I understand. With that out of the table (I never ever played a tournament game with unknown glyphs), if you think the right hill is stronger (which I don't necessarily agree) and put all your figures on right hill, and even if your opponent does same, the map still plays out fine. Both camps can fire at each other and the 7 hexs are not easy to defend (open area, difficult for the reinforcements to join), it really does not have the camping problem most of 2-hills maps have, can't really explain why.
Tho if your opponent takes this 7 spot and shot at your SZ you are in deep trouble, but it's because either you lost hard map control in the middle, either you slow rolled too much in your SZ, so kinda deserved.


Also something I noted while playing on it, is the left side path to the "ennemy" 7 hex spot is surprinsgly fast. You can quite easily send a big melee figure to mess everything up there, or rush the spot down with your map control figures before the opponent get to settle a nice pod.


Last edited by Foudzing; March 30th, 2022 at 04:55 AM.
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Old March 30th, 2022, 04:48 PM
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Re: Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

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@Foudzing ! Good to see you back on Heroscapers!
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