Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[Yodaking]

Making it so the 'any' hero only gets one marker for the entire game should help keep the figure from abusing the markers.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

What are the d20 powers that become the most dangerous if you could remove a marker to add 3 to the roll after you know the result? With ~600 cards their are a lot of d20 powers to consider.

If we go with one of the 2 ideas I presented, where only 1 marker can be placed on that figure's card, then I don't see it leading to a ton of issues. Because at that point, it's a 1 time use of +3, and you may be better off drafting the likes of Sage, Magneto + Destiny(if they are a Mutant, for the +3/2), or Brainiac 5 + Legionnaire and receive a static +1/2 throughout the game. So I don't necessarily see it as a huge issue arising if it's limited. I also think if it is limited in that way, most people would be far more likely to want to draft those on the class/personality list and receive 3-5 markers, than to only use 1 marker on 1 person. The big reason to use only the 1 person would be to get the static benefits being offered, which I don't find any of them thus far to be outrageous. The big stuff is in the burns. And to get the most out of the burns, you need more markers.

Now, for the question at hand. I'd say powers like Gorgon's Stone Gaze, Psylocke's Psychic Knife, Vision's Physical Disruption, or anything resulting in either an auto-kill or permanent taking control of, would benefit most. Any Mutant would be better off in a Magneto + Destiny build, if they just care about a +3, because that's more than just a 1 time use they'd get in that build. So it's really down to non-mutants, and if it's really worth spending the 600 points to get that 1 time +3, vs. a static +1/2 from elsewhere.

[IAmBatman]

I know you guys will hate losing the personalities, but I'd rather see Cyborg get the place one marker on one figure approach and have Batman and Martian Manhunter dish out the others. I think it's a more elegant design when we just stick to classes on two cards and have the third open-ended.

And Yoda, have the Heroes actually stated that we need to trim down to 5 Classes? If not, let's not assume that restriction yet.

To me, the key 9 Classes are still: Archer, Champion, Vigilante, Officer, Scientist, Warrior, Magician, King, and Protector. If we did 5 on each card, with one overlap, then gave Cyborg the place on one version, I think it'd work really well.

To me, that'd be Archer, Vigilante, Magician, King, and Officer or Champion on Martian Manhunter, and Scientist, Warrior, Protector, and two of Vigilante, Officer, and Champion on Batman.

I can dig the open entry membership for one figure, though, since their use of the markers would end up being pretty limited and they'd mostly end up taking the static benefits instead of the burn benefits.

I think Cyborg 2.0 could be pretty close to what you guys had for the Classic Marker version with this approach. Give him the bonding, let him bring one member into the fold, make him a Scientist, and give him the Boom Tube Glyph power, and repair power and he's solid. We could probably even start with him since he'd be simpler than the others (though I think Martian Manhunter would also make a nice starter).

[Arkham]

I'd prefer to start with the classes, and build out from there. Regardless, we're hoping it all falls together in a close time span, at least in terms of the main 3. As for ditching personalities, we could do that, and just have the 1 open for Cyborg. It would be more elegant, and it would essentially combine the original marker design with the marker burn quite literally.

If we can all get behind this, I say we move forward with that. We get our classes to keep things centered on the JL characters, but those who want the choice of 1 open figure, can have that option as well. I'd say that's a fair compromise. I know Viegon expressed liking to the 1 open design option. So maybe it'll be enough to get him on board.

With the static power in this up to date version, as well as a 1 power burn option, it gives everything the original markers did, but with an added option to burn the marker in order to get a beefed up bonus.

[Ronin]

I haven't pitched in on this conversation in quite some time (been finding it a bit much to keep up with, between one thing and another). Cool to see that we've got some good ideas coming out of it, though. I'm liking the direction that Bats is talking about. My only real quibble is that I'd like the class lists to be a little shorter (why not leave some room for future expansion), but I can live with 5 and 5.

[IAmBatman]

I agree, that's the best we're going to do in terms of compromise here. If that's agreeable enough, should we go ahead and start polishing the three designs one at a time and then put them up in the public design post?

Or do we want to further survey the Heroes?

[Arkham]

Alright, with those changes made, and giving Batman 5 markers instead of 4, but leaving MM with 5 as well(now that Cyborg only starts with 1)... That would give us:

Martian Manhunter 2.0:

JUSTICE LEAGUE TELEPATHY
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Archer, Vigilante, Magician, Officer, or King Heroes you control. Once per turn, after a figure you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to add 3 to that roll. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

TELEPATHIC MASTERY
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any figure you control within 5 spaces of Martian Manhunter with a Justice League marker on it's card. All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

Batman 3.0:

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICAL ANALYSIS
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Champion, Warrior, Scientist, Officer, or Protector Heroes you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls attack dice, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card, and the defending figure must subtract 2 from its defense. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control, to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

FIELD ORDERS
Instead of taking a turn with Batman, you may instead take a turn with one other Unique Hero you control, within clear sight of Batman, with a Justice League marker on its card.

MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST
When attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled, and all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Cyborg 2.0:

JUSTICE LEAGUE COMBAT COOPERATION
At the start of the game, choose one other Unique Hero you control and place a Justice League marker on its card. Once per turn, after a figure you control takes a turn, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to take a turn with Cyborg, you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the round, if Cyborg is in your start zone, you may choose to place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space in your start zone. At the end of the round, you may move up to 3 figures in your start zone with a Justice League marker on their card up to 3 spaces each, then remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC ENGINEERING
At the end of a round, Cyborg and all Android or Cyborg Unique Heroes you control with a Justice League marker on their card may remove 1 Wound Marker from that figure's card.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, good overall, but I miss having a couple more options for the burning. I found the defensive power on Martian Manhunter really useful in playtesting (it made Zatanna way more valuable than the D20 boost did) and I really think the special attack doubling Batman had would help Red Tornado's viability (though I guess maybe it'd be a problem with Punisher?).

Edit: Going more elegant is probably the right choice, though. Maybe give Batman the defensive effect Martian Manhunter used to have instead of the -2 from defenses?

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hmm, good overall, but I miss having a couple more options for the burning. I found the defensive power on Martian Manhunter really useful in playtesting (it made Zatanna way more valuable than the D20 boost did) and I really think the special attack doubling Batman had would help Red Tornado's viability (though I guess maybe it'd be a problem with Punisher?).

Edit: Going more elegant is probably the right choice, though. Maybe give Batman the defensive effect Martian Manhunter used to have instead of the -2 from defenses?

That's not a bad idea. I do love that defense power quite a bit, and I think it'd ultimately come in handy more than a -2 to defense. Either one is good with me, but I like the idea of having a protector for some of the weaker figures out there.

[IAmBatman]

I wish we could do something with special attacks as well to up Black Canary and Red Tornado's usefulness, but it's probably just not possible to do without helping Punisher too much (though it's usually his normal attack that's the issue, right?).

[Yodaking]

I went through all the 250+ point cards, assuming only Unique Heroes and no Event Heroes will get a marker, these are the d20 powers that might be a concern. I didn't look at glyphs that someone might start the game with.

Loki - God of Evil (17+, +4 Valiant) Wound Transfer.

Ghost Rider - Penance Stare (19+, +4 from kills), Instant Death.

Darkseid - Omega Effect SA (19+), Instant Death.

Thanos - Rejected by Death (19+)

Capt. Marvel (Genis-Vell) - Cosmic Madness (1-7), Not the same a destroying a figure but the +3 could prevent you from losing him.

The Mask - Reality Warp (13+), Negating a card's powers is certainly powerful.

Mister Sinister - Genetic Manipulation (14+), Placing a number sooner would certainly be a good use of the marker.

Karnilla - You Will Be Mine (15+), Take Permanent Control of Hero.

YL Arkillo - Eviscerate (17-19, 20+), 3 Wounds, Instant Death.

Gamora - God Killer (14+), Doubles Wounds Inflicted.

Gorgon - Stone Gaze (20+), Instant Death.

Vision - Physical Disruption (17-19, 20+), 3 Wounds, 4 Wounds.

Psylocke - Psychic Knife (17-19, 20+), 2 Wounds + OM Removal, Instant Death.

I'd say the Instant Death and Multiple Auto-Wounds options are the biggest concern but I included a few others. One thing I noticed from going though this is that their are a lot of D20 powers that may not be game changers with a single +3 to a roll, but may be a much better use of the power than what the class/personality members can do with it.

Whatever card gets the 'any' marker may need to be pretty highly priced to account for all the better uses of the marker they bring into play. So I'm not sure if an unpriced utility glyph is going to be viable, otherwise you draft the cheapest figure that can start with the glyph and give the marker to one of the Instant Kill cards above. I wouldn't want to see MMII priced on the idea his +3 marker is going to everyone when he's not the one that is giving it out to everyone. The card that connects MMII to everyone is where the price bump should come into play.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

And Yoda, have the Heroes actually stated that we need to trim down to 5 Classes? If not, let's not assume that restriction yet.

A recent card design in the Outer Sanctum was limited to 4 classes and I got the impression that 5 would not be okay. I could be wrong though.