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Old February 17th, 2019, 12:06 AM
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Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Hey everyone, I just got done explaining some things to a fellow scaper on the Heroscape facebook page that sparked something in my mind. I just got done explaining to him why units such as Marro Warriors and Krav Maga Agents cant really be common units and still be balanced. I went on the whole tangent of how they do amazing things for their price point, but then leveled with him on some of the other units that most certainly could be common which made me think of something else that I haven't really seen done before. Make some of these units Uncommon. Granted I would want to probably change some of the heroes names to something more generic but otherwise wouldn't change anything about them, save add a sticker to their base to tell them apart or give them a slight paint adjustment. The point to this is: You get to use your extra figures from your master sets and they get to stop being robbed of their bases to rot in some random tin or box. Here is the list, and what my thoughts are. Please chime in everyone and make master set Uniques great again. Keep in mind this is just focusing on the ROTV set for now. But I'd like to get to the other ones that people have a bunch of doubles of.

Grimnak- Grimnak is a fun character. If you had two of them, it wouldn't be too nuts. At his best you could use two of them with Ornak's Red flag of fury. You could take his model, add a sticker to his base, or repaint his t-rex. Make a new card that basically calls his extras some generic Orc Champion name such as T-REX Rider or something similar to how the swog rider is done. I don't even think it would be OP. But it would be fun.

Raelyn- This one you could not re use as an uncommon unit because of the nature of the defense aura. I don't really even like to be facing one of these much less more than one. Change my mind.

Finn and Thorgrim-These guys are in a similar boat to good old Grimnak. With what they do for the price they do it, it wouldn't be too crazy. If someone invest 3 of each to bolster 1 other unit they kind of spent most of their points doing so. I think they would be fine.

Mimring
-I really feel mimring would not be too OP to have multiple copies of. Changing the name to Red Drake or something similar has a nice ring to it. Again with the Stickers or Repaints.

Syvarris- This guy would not only not be OP, but would be a terribly good time Renaming his extras as Elf Marksman or something of the such. Elf builds would love this.

Agent Carr- Here is another example of a pretty mellow hero that would hurt nothing by becoming an Uncommon. I haven't a name for him as an uncommon yet, but I don't mind the idea.

Deathwalker 9000-Here is one that I really don't understand why its a Unique at all. In the hasbro cartoons, the "good guys" kill tons of these. Not saying that you'll win, but it would certainly not bug me in the slightest if this guy was Uncommon. It might be fun.

Drake Alexander- Drake is pretty iconic, but his abilities don't really break game play if you were to have more than one of them. Making a generic Uncommon card of the extras of him doesn't seem broken.

Negoksa- Having multiples of this guy isn't overpowered. Its quite hard to roll a 20 to mindshackle, so I don't feel that, along with his stats is really too crazy. His Uncommon Card could be Marro Mind Witch or something. I'm sure if anyone else is interested in this thread some of you guys could come up with some pretty cool generic names for the Uncommon ones.


Next is another slightly similar topic: The unique squads in the Master sets.

Zettian Guards- These guys I have seen people make into a common card, and fully agree. They are not Overpowered, and making them into a common would actually get them some use. So, I'd just go with these guys as Commons.

Tarn Viking Warriors- These guys I think as is could not be commons, because you get a really good price point for what your getting. Here's a thought though. What if....They were an Uncommon Squad. Basically this Idea is that you have 2 cards for them such as you do for Uncommon Heroes, and you mark their base with a sticker, or give them a repaint and you keep them as two separate entities. This could work because as the squad gets some members killed on one card, it would not be able to activate the figures belonging to the other card. This could work. Having multiples, but separate. It just might work.

Izumi Samurai- To be honest, I really feel like this was a hit and a miss for hasbro when they made these guys unique. I feel like if there ever was a squad of samurai that could be common, it'd be these guys. Making these guys Uncommon, similarly to what I threw out for the Tarn Viking Warriors would work too. It'd just give more options for when you really wanted some more samurai foot soldiers for Kato Katsurro to play with.

Krav Maga Agents- These guys are in short, amazing. The could not be commons with the stats they have. It would be interesting to see how they would fare as Uncommon individual squads. They would be powerful, but, as one got picked off from each squad and so on, they wouldn't have that threat that commons do. So they might work as Uncommon squads.

Marro Warriors- I feel much the same way towards these guys as I do with the Krav Maga Agents. In the same scenario, if they only activated the figures from each individual card as an "uncommon Unit" they might work.

Elite Onyx Vipers- These guys would be fine as an Uncommon Squad, I'd even say for their steep price that id even try these guys as common.

Airborne Elite- These guys would not probably work out as common. Because of how their Grenade power is worded, it would allow you to throw all of the grenades in one turn. This would mean if you had 3 squads of them, you'd get to throw 12 grenades in one turn. If these guy were a rendition of an Uncommon Squad, that were in groups of 4 that activated separately, these might be fun to use that way. Bummer for me, I already painted 5 squads of my extras as German Nazi soldiers from WW2.

Let me know what you guys think of this. It really makes me sad when I see my extra bucket of debased multiples of my Master set heroes when they really could be used to make some really fun mix ups. I will probably start making some Uncommon Cards for the ones that I'm thinking will work out in my customs thread. Interested to see you guys thoughts on this.

Last edited by TREX; February 17th, 2019 at 12:25 AM.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 08:01 AM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Some of the heroes would be straight broken, some would be fine I though.

-Mimring would be okay I think. Investing in more than one be interesting. You could do Mimringx2+Arrow Grutsx3+Swogx3. That's not overpowered.
-Syvarris would also be fine probably. Having two would probably be not as good as one seeing that you generally want to ping with him from afar and do so until your opponent gets to him, I feel like once he's engaged, the next one will be engaged shortly after and then fall, seeing the nature of his build on most maps. The other 100pt. would be better spent on other range imo. I guess Syvarrisx2+rats would be pretty strong. Not broken though.
-Raelin would be the most broken figure ever if you could have more than one. Raelin x4+Q9 is unbeatable, or you don't even need a strong multiattack hero you could just do Raelin x6 and slowly traverse the board keeping each within all their auras, each would have 13 def 5 life lol.
-Agent Carr sucks so if you want more than one be my guest haha
-NGS would be pretty strong but not broken. Romansx3+NGSx3+Raelin would be a cool army.
-Finn/Thorgrim would be borderline broken I'd say. You could run Finnx3+KoWx3+MW. MW with 5 attack is busted. Or with 6 def, swap Thorgrim in. Finnx3+Ratsx3+Hydra, Hydra with 7 attack. I'd run that
-Drake I don't see being over powered if you have more than one. Drakex2+Massx4 is probably the strongest build. I don't really see it being immensely better than Charos, or Braxas, or Sentinelsx2, if better at all.
-DW9K is fine with multiples. I don't see any issues with that.
-Grimnak would be broken, or at least now an A+ figure. You could run Grimnakx2+Bladesx5+Nerak, or Grimnakx2+Heaviesx3+Nerak, or Grimnakx2+Bladesx3+Raelin+Nerak. Those all seem too good to me. Grimnakx3+Bladesx4 @520pt might be nasty too. I think being able to have more than one Grimnak pushes the Orcs over the top.

There's no such thing as an uncommon squad, are you implying that you can have multiple but have to activate each on their own and separate them? I guess that's a possible houserule.

If uncommon:

-Izumi would be fine, they're not all that great in the first place. You could make them common even.
-Same with Zettians. Zettian pretty much suck so I'm down to make them better. C3V helps.
-Krav would be too good. They're already one of the best units in the game and i can't imagine having to face another squad of them in the endgame. Kravx2+Ratsx4+Hydra or Kravx3+Raelin+Ratsx3 would be hell to face. Phantom Knights always keep the Krav in check but I think opening the door to more than one squad would just be too good.
-Tarns would be fine as uncommon. They'd be really interesting if they were common, definitely would rise way up the rankings.
-Marro Warriors would be very very broken if common, but uncommon? I'm not sure. They're already the best squad in the game after the rats so they obviously dont need any help but I don't know if making them uncommon would push them over the edge. I don't think their endgame prowess would benefit from having to divvy up order makers more on multiple squads. Having 2 or 3 squads would be pretty sweet though. It's really something I'd have to try, and see how abusable it is.
-I have no idea what multiple uncommons AE would be like. Would you roll for the drop each separately? I assume so. But unless you hit the drop for both (or 2+ I should say) on round 1, I don't know if it would be all that broken having more than one squad of them. That's a lot of points that you're waiting to come onto the board before your opponent traverses it and positions properly. It's an idea to try to wrap my head around for sure, having more than one AE.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 10:39 AM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Most of the time a hero being uncommon barely matters because you don't want to spend twice the points to duplicate that hero's effect. It's better to have variety.

That being said, people would almost definitely run 2x Grimnak if he was Uncommon, since Chomp is just that good and so is the adjacency bonus. Right now it's easy to focus down to Grimnak and neuter the Orcs, but if there's two Grimnaks that's so hard to do.

Finn is probably the second best. Something like Knights of Weston x2, Finn x2, Marro Warriors is pretty wicked at 450; 4 attack Marro Warriors as cleanup would be hard to deal with. 6 or 7 attack Hydras are scary too but it's so easy to just knock off heads once and then you don't have to deal with it anymore, and Water Clone prevents that.

Interesting thought experiment. Every other hero would probably be "fine" but also no one would play more than one of them.

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Old February 17th, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
here's no such thing as an uncommon squad, are you implying that you can have multiple but have to activate each on their own and separate them? I guess that's a possible houserule.
OP knows that, this is literally what was suggested in the OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Here's a thought though. What if....They were an Uncommon Squad. Basically this Idea is that you have 2 cards for them such as you do for Uncommon Heroes, and you mark their base with a sticker, or give them a repaint and you keep them as two separate entities. This could work because as the squad gets some members killed on one card, it would not be able to activate the figures belonging to the other card. This could work. Having multiples, but separate. It just might work.
And it's an interesting idea. The idea of an Uncommon Squad has come up many times before, but I don't think I've seen it ever put this way. I think it could work and it would be cool to see.

Quote:
Tarns would be fine as uncommon. They'd be really interesting if they were common, definitely would rise way up the rankings.
C3V had to amend the wording on Berserker Charge for the Dreadguls, but as Uncommons instead of Common I don't think you'd have to change anything.

I would be against both Grimnak and NGS being Uncommon; there are local players that play both and Grimnak is good enough as-is (I'd hate to see a second one in that army) and you have no idea how easy it apparently is to roll a 20 on the first try for NGS way more than 5% of the time.

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Old February 17th, 2019, 11:20 AM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I would be against both Grimnak and NGS being Uncommon; there are local players that play both and Grimnak is good enough as-is (I'd hate to see a second one in that army) and you have no idea how easy it apparently is to roll a 20 on the first try for NGS way more than 5% of the time.
There was one game where my sister managed to first Mindshackle Charos, then Mindshackle a custom Dragon Rider who was working with him, and finally Mindshackle Kelda all within the span of just three turns. I always keep that game in mind when thinking about the odds of Mindshackle.

On the topic of the thread, Grimnak definitely shouldn't be Uncommon. If anything, I could see an argument being made for multiples of Tornak, but I still think that the Warrior Enhancement Aura is far too strong to be duplicated too easily, let alone Chomp. Most of the other ones probably wouldn't be too overpowered if Uncommon (with exceptions to the spirits, Marro Warriors, and Krav Maga, of course).

In addition to the Zettian Guards, I actually think that it would be interesting if Deathwalker 9000 was Common. He's still a huge points investment (280 for just two of the same hero is a tough pill to swallow), but one random whiff no longer costs you a ton of Order Markers if you're using him. Given that the cartoons establish there being many versions of him, it's something that I wish we had seen explored.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 01:26 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Double Grimnak is probably fine, and double Tornak is definitely fine (you can already double up on the enhancement by running both Grimnak and Tornak). If you're running 2x Grimnak and Nerak, you're only running max of 3x Heavies, and then you just lose to Braxas and Firestorm. You're better off having something to deal with her than running 2x Grimnak.

I guess where I split from a large majority of the community in my army building philosophies is that I don't believe in making my good matchups better. I'd rather hedge my bets and have answers to as much as possible. I don't need to win more in matchups that Heavies excel in; rather, I need to make sure that I don't have any bad matchups where I can lose to an inexperienced player due solely to the matchup. Double Grimnak is the epitome of a "win more" strategy and I don't think it's very good.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 01:55 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Great discussion so far guys. I'm really digging it. I have my own reservations on some of the units, as specified in the OP. @Cleon , yes there is no such thing as an uncommon squad. I'm suggesting they be treated as an uncommon hero would, where they are ran as one unit Unique card instead of using them like a common squad, but be able to have multiples. I'm very wary on Krav Maga Agents and Marro warriors even as an "uncommon" because they are pretty good as is. I can also see the viking spirit thing adding up as well, but a counter to that is that they are sinking that many points into those guys just to add to another hero, which deducts their points for bonding squads to draft which is much better attacking with 4 knights of weston plus one of them, so its worth looking into. Raeyln is just about broken as she is currently with only one of her.
@NecroBlade , thanks for jumping in on the discussion. Yeah, it just popped into my head how much potential fun there could be had there and most of us kids that's been around awhile have a bucket of extras of these figures. As far as Negoksa, I've been on the crazy end of that stick and got a bunch of my army mindshackled in one tournament game courtesy of @BiggaBullfrog It was a sight to behold for sure. Then there's Grimnak, while he is pretty good at chomping squads, He really doesn't hold up very well defensively sometimes when I play him, and having multiples would be interesting and some scary fun. I think it would be interesting to just have a go testing it out to see. @Astroking112 , yeah, I kind of like the idea of the Deathwalkers in General as a common hero, that would be kinda neat. Of course they would lose their Unique status and not be able to pick up treasure, but you really gotta be nuts to go for treasure with them right? @OrcElfArmyOne , yeah, I'm not a win at all costs kinda guy either. I do like to bring something somewhat competitive to tournaments though, because getting smashed by Tier 1 A+ builds every game isnt that fun to me cause I like to kill figures. I'd rather take 3rd place, get a nice prize, and hand it off to some young kid that is there at the tournament for his first time. (I've done that on many occasions.)

Overall, I really like how the Argument is very split on some of these units, and everyone agrees on a few of the other ones. Just for fun, I may try to play some of these in doubles at my house to see how it goes, and just see how OP, or not OP some of them are. After all these years of Heroscape, I've never really thought about it. If any of you guys do this for kicks and giggles please post the result here. I'd really like to see how it goes. The same could be tried for really any Unique out there, As Orc said, double tornaks would be fine too, and I agree. Of course, not all of these units can be done this way, but it would be fun to find out which ones could and see where it goes. Again, thank you guys for jumping in on the discussion and humoring me. I really think the idea is neat, and if you are like me, it wont cost anything to check it out because you have a bunch of the figures already in some stuffy bucket in the back of your closet.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 04:26 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Hey guys. Another great topic in the same ball park as this discussion for those units that just cant be turned into an uncommon or the like would be, customs based on the premise of a simple repaint to the squad or hero and a custom card for them? A common raelyn figure of a valkyrie hero? Not really as a defense buff chick but maybe just a fun valkrie common hero that does something else. As I said before I had painted up a ton of my extra airborne as german infantry. Let me know what you guys thoughts are.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 04:32 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

As far as the Orcs go I pretty much agree with Vegie - two figures in grimnak's roll I'd assume is crazy good, also orcs get double when next to both which can be nasty. Compensating your bad matchups would be tougher, yes.

Maybe Grimnak x2, Blades x3 as a base and add something else to deal with Braxas/Firestorm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
here's no such thing as an uncommon squad, are you implying that you can have multiple but have to activate each on their own and separate them? I guess that's a possible houserule.
OP knows that, this is literally what was suggested in the OP:
I was sleepy

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREX View Post
Great discussion so far guys. I'm really digging it. I have my own reservations on some of the units, as specified in the OP. @Cleon , yes there is no such thing as an uncommon squad. I'm suggesting they be treated as an uncommon hero would, where they are ran as one unit Unique card instead of using them like a common squad, but be able to have multiples. I'm very wary on Krav Maga Agents and Marro warriors even as an "uncommon" because they are pretty good as is. I can also see the viking spirit thing adding up as well, but a counter to that is that they are sinking that many points into those guys just to add to another hero, which deducts their points for bonding squads to draft which is much better attacking with 4 knights of weston plus one of them, so its worth looking into. Raeyln is just about broken as she is currently with only one of her.
Yeah Krav would be too good. I actually don't know about MW, my immediate reaction would be too good seeing their already top tier presence in the normal game, but I don't know that MW uncommon would be that much better. MW common, now that is busted.

On multiple Raelins...I know you agree it's straight broken but how would one go about facing something like that? I don't think you can do anything to it, it's pretty unbeatable in my eyes.Multiple Raelins not only means more defense for your attackers/offense but also makes it stupid hard to take down a Raelin too (assuming you keep them positioned well and close). It almost doesn't matter what unit(s) you're going to take for your offense, the raelins will make them impenetrable, whether it's Q9, Krav, 10th, Nakitas, Kaemon, etc. Run more than one offense if you're afraid of Braxas, Black Wyrmlins, Atlaga, and the like.


One Raelin is amazing yes (2nd best figure in the game imo), but she's quite beatable. But more than one, each protecting each other, that's just dumb

Viking Spirits I think are maybe ok, just watch out for certain things. Like vegie said, more than 1 Finn on MW is nuts. I agree, and I think Thorgrim can also be fearsome in the same way.

I'm enjoying the discussion as well.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 05:29 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

I think it would be a fun kind of deal to actually test some of the units that are possible candidates to make an uncommon option for and the ones that dont be able to make a custom uncommon card for. I think there are some fun possibilities there.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 04:16 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Double Grimnak is probably fine, and double Tornak is definitely fine (you can already double up on the enhancement by running both Grimnak and Tornak). If you're running 2x Grimnak and Nerak, you're only running max of 3x Heavies, and then you just lose to Braxas and Firestorm. You're better off having something to deal with her than running 2x Grimnak.

I guess where I split from a large majority of the community in my army building philosophies is that I don't believe in making my good matchups better. I'd rather hedge my bets and have answers to as much as possible. I don't need to win more in matchups that Heavies excel in; rather, I need to make sure that I don't have any bad matchups where I can lose to an inexperienced player due solely to the matchup. Double Grimnak is the epitome of a "win more" strategy and I don't think it's very good.
That's a good point on the different philosophies. It's hard to take my mind out of what I usually value and how I usually weigh and gage the metagame I'm playing into.

Also glad to see you thinking of Braxas, I'm proud of you
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Old February 18th, 2019, 05:30 PM
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Re: Uniques being Uncommons from Master sets?

When I get some spare time from other projects Im going to start some games testing these units in multiples to see which ones work and which ones dont, then go about making some neat cards for the ones that dont making them common or uncommon depending on what works for them. Anyone else curious about this that runs some fun tests leave a batrep here in this thread letting us know what you think. Most of us I are theoryscaping here because we have known "better" than to play this way. Starting with master sets would be best because those are the most notorious doubles to collect dust but doing other figures the same way would be ok as well. Look forward to what you guys come up with.
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