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  #3169  
Old January 30th, 2019, 10:05 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Master of the Hunt deals 1 wound then rolls a die for Mortal Strike because it's not part of the attack.
You'd think that's how it works, but according to Crixus's Book:
Quote:
-ONE SHIELD DEFENCE: Mortal Strike Damage
Does Crixus recieve additional wounds from Mortal Strike?
No. Additional wounds from Mortal Stike are considered part of the attack, so if One Shield Defence activates, Crixus only takes one wound.
Which demonstrates my overall concern. The more weird power interactions we get, the more complicated power interactions we get. Ideally a player can just pick up a card and play it with only rare interactions requiring rules lookups, while a rules expert can make correct rulings without looking up R&Cs. That's what we in Editing try to achieve, anyway, even with the growing complications of powers.
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  #3170  
Old February 9th, 2019, 05:55 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Why in the world would that be considered part of the attack? Heck, even the Sujoah ruling makes no sense. It says you don't get to keep rolling if the wound isn't inflicted, but the power says "inflict a wound and roll again". Rolling again isn't contingent on inflicting a wound... Seems like the rules need an update, to me.

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  #3171  
Old February 9th, 2019, 07:02 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Why in the world would that be considered part of the attack? Heck, even the Sujoah ruling makes no sense. It says you don't get to keep rolling if the wound isn't inflicted, but the power says "inflict a wound and roll again". Rolling again isn't contingent on inflicting a wound... Seems like the rules need an update, to me.
I agree; that ruling makes no sense. I wish I knew where that ruling came from. I also agree about Sujoah; the roll isn't explicitly contingent on the wound.

These are far from the only places where "do what the card says" doesn't work, though, not even close. Flying is the classic example of a power that has a lot more to it than its explicit text.
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  #3172  
Old February 9th, 2019, 07:24 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
These are far from the only places where "do what the card says" doesn't work, though, not even close. Flying is the classic example of a power that has a lot more to it than its explicit text.
I wonder if that's something the C3V would consider cleaning up? I'm sure some would argue it's outside the scope, but it seems like clearer, more consistent rules would only help the VC cause.

Flying is a weird one. I reworded it for my SuperHeroScape™ customs (cut it in half, even), but there are some things you just can't fix: I don't think there's a reasonable way to spell it all out that will fit on a card, so it's just something that has to run a little bit on everyone's understanding of how "flying" functions in real life.

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  #3173  
Old February 9th, 2019, 08:36 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
These are far from the only places where "do what the card says" doesn't work, though, not even close. Flying is the classic example of a power that has a lot more to it than its explicit text.
I wonder if that's something the C3V would consider cleaning up? I'm sure some would argue it's outside the scope, but it seems like clearer, more consistent rules would only help the VC cause.
Heh. C3V isn't even willing to change problematic C3V designs. I can't imagine making changes to the core ruleset or established official rulings.
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  #3174  
Old February 12th, 2019, 06:25 PM
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Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm hoping to submit these guys as a faction/group pretty soon. What does everyone think?

NAME = DALMOR OF IRONSTONE
GENERAL = AQUILLA
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = DWARF
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WARRIOR
PERSONALITY = STEADFAST
SIZE/HEIGHT = SMALL 3

3 LIFE
4 MOVE
1 RANGE
3 ATTACK
5 DEFENSE
60 POINTS

Imposing Threat:
An opponent's figure that is engaged with Dalmor of Ironstone, rolls 2 less attack dice when attacking small and medium friendly Common figures with a normal attack.

Strategic Charge:
Before moving Dalmor of Ironstone, if a friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces is engaged, you may add 2 to Dalmor of Ironstone's move.

Climb X2:
When moving up or down levels of terrain, Dalmor of Ironstone may double his height.

--------

NAME = GREAT AXES OF IRONSTONE
GENERAL = AQUILLA
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = DWARVES
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE SQUAD
CLASS = WARRIORS
PERSONALITY = FEARLESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = SMALL 3

LIFE: 1 (4 FIGURES)
MOVE: 4
RANGE: 1
ATTACK: 3
DEFENSE: 3
80 POINTS

Tenacity:
When rolling Attack dice, if at least 2 skulls were rolled, add 1 skull to what ever was rolled. When rolling Defense dice, if at least 2 shields were rolled, add 1 shield to what ever was rolled.

Strategic Charge:
Before moving a Great Axe of Ironstone, if a friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces is engaged, you may add 2 to that Great Axe of Ironstone's move.

Climb X2:
When moving up or down levels of terrain, Great Axes of Ironstone may double their height.


The figures used are from the "Dwarf Patrol 1" set by em4 minatures. The picture shows them next to all official dwarves. Look for their green bases. The one that is pointing is Dalmar.


The Dwarf Faction is mostly complete, but 2 things it could use is a Unique Squad, and a Front Line Support Hero such as Dalmor. Strategic Charge holds these guys back at the beginning of the game by slowing them down until your main force has engaged the enemy. You'll have to keep the position your army's engagements in mind when you decide to bring them up, and in late game clean up, it can lead to tough decisions where you have to decide not to attack in order to keep their movement options open. It has some unique situations where you can engage with the first squad figure to activate Strategic Charge for the other 3. Tenacity makes these guys a fearsome force, but the roll requirement keeps it from being too powerful by allowing blanks, and rolls of 1. Dalmor is great at tying up a heavy hitter that would much rather be making quick work of your squaddies. 5 defense means he won't go down easily, but 3 life, and good positioning on the enemies part can keep him from being too powerful. Although he has the highest printed defense number of any of the dwarven heros, he lacks any additional abilities to help bolster this, and combined with only 3 life, aside from Darrak, I think he might actually be the easiest Dwarven hero to kill. His abilities can be negated with special attacks, and by simply avoiding him. Despite any down sides, he is still a good distraction, and his lower price point will be a very welcome addition to the faction.

Last edited by Leaf_It; February 13th, 2019 at 05:05 AM.
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  #3175  
Old February 12th, 2019, 10:01 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I like the direction that these guys are headed in, but there are a few sticking points for me right now. Many are just nitpicks, but I feel like they're worth mentioning nonetheless.

Imposing Threat is cool, but I kind of feel like it's just a flashier Combat Challenge. The main difference of course is that it just highly encourages the opponent to attack Dalmar, leaving them the option of still trying their luck against other squads (or heroes or larger figures), but the powers feel fundamentally very similar.

I'd also suggest that Dalmar's points be adjusted slightly from 60 to distinguish him from Darrak Ambershard and give the Dwarves more army-building options, but that's not really a big deal.

I don't like the name Strategic Charge at all. The Axegrinders and Dreadguls have Strategic in the name of their bonding because they get the choice to either use the power or to gain another benefit, but these guys aren't getting a choice. They either have an engaged friendly unit nearby and get a boost, or they don't. Perhaps Fearless Charge or some other equivalent would fit more for the name.

I also feel like the wording of the power could be slightly improved:
Quote:
Before moving a Great Axe of Ironstone, if there is an engaged friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces, you may add 2 to that Great Axe of Ironstone's move.
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  #3176  
Old February 12th, 2019, 11:23 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Imposing Threat is cool, but I kind of feel like it's just a flashier Combat Challenge. The main difference of course is that it just highly encourages the opponent to attack Dalmar, leaving them the option of still trying their luck against other squads (or heroes or larger figures), but the powers feel fundamentally very similar.
The problem with Combat Challenge is that it doesn't say "it must attack a figure with the Combat Challenge ability." it says "it must attack Tandros Kreel." If it were to be reused, it's wording would need to be changed, or a figure that was engaged to two figures with Combat Challenge would either be forced to attack both, or would not be able to attack either. I also like that Imposing threat still allows your opponent to attempt to attack another figure if they feel it's worth it. Maybe a Swog Rider is next to them as well, and they want to try and get rid of the +1 attack boost. I just like having options. You are correct though that it serves effectively the same purpose, but so do all bonding abilities, and many other abilities like "Tough" and "Warforged Resolve" share similarities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking
I'd also suggest that Dalmar's points be adjusted slightly from 60 to distinguish him from Darrak Ambershard and give the Dwarves more army-building options, but that's not really a big deal.
I plan to do a little more testing before submission, so it's possible that the price will change, but if it does, it will be for balance, rather than army building options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking
I don't like the name Strategic Charge at all. The Axegrinders and Dreadguls have Strategic in the name of their bonding because they get the choice to either use the power or to gain another benefit, but these guys aren't getting a choice. They either have an engaged friendly unit nearby and get a boost, or they don't. Perhaps Fearless Charge or some other equivalent would fit more for the name.
I struggled to come up with a name that felt right for this ability. The problem is that it does not require you to move towards the enemy at all. You could run as far away as possible if you wanted to, and that wouldn't be very fearless would it? But strategy is something else entirely. A good strategy is to win, and when you see a big bad that is boosted by Raelin, the solution isn't always to run up fearlessly, but to strategically avoid the Raelin boosted unit until later. I am open to names though, but they need to make sense thematically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking
I also feel like the wording of the power could be slightly improved:
Quote:
Before moving a Great Axe of Ironstone, if there is an engaged friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces, you may add 2 to that Great Axe of Ironstone's move.
This change is so small that I'll just leave it up to the SoV's preference when/if they approve it. It would function identically, so either could work.
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  #3177  
Old February 13th, 2019, 12:14 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
The problem with Combat Challenge is that it doesn't say "it must attack a figure with the Combat Challenge ability." it says "it must attack Tandros Kreel." If it were to be reused, it's wording would need to be changed, or a figure that was engaged to two figures with Combat Challenge would either be forced to attack both, or would not be able to attack either. I also like that Imposing threat still allows your opponent to attempt to attack another figure if they feel it's worth it. Maybe a Swog Rider is next to them as well, and they want to try and get rid of the +1 attack boost. I just like having options. You are correct though that it serves effectively the same purpose, but so do all bonding abilities, and many other abilities like "Tough" and "Warforged Resolve" share similarities.
I don't see an issue with rewording Combat Challenge in future uses to "...must attack a figure with the Combat Challenge power," but that's beside the point.

I agree that there are some cases where the powers will have differences (such as when the opponent is only engaged to heroes instead of squads), but I don't feel like these will be significant often. In most cases, it will act almost exactly like Combat Challenge, which is why I feel like the power seems similar.

I'd argue that this is a different case than the different types of bonding and stuff like Tough or Warforged Resolve, though. Those are all specifically different types of the same power and are noted as such (in the case of bonding), or two similar mechanics with a key difference (in the case of Warforged Resolve also working against Special Attacks). This, however, is two completely different powers and mechanics that attempt to accomplish the same thing, which will naturally lead to at least a small feeling of redundancy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I plan to do a little more testing before submission, so it's possible that the price will change, but if it does, it will be for balance, rather than army building options.
Yeah, it would really just be more of a quality-of-life change. I do think that even just a 5 point difference can help units stand out sometimes, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I struggled to come up with a name that felt right for this ability. The problem is that it does not require you to move towards the enemy at all. You could run as far away as possible if you wanted to, and that wouldn't be very fearless would it? But strategy is something else entirely. A good strategy is to win, and when you see a big bad that is boosted by Raelin, the solution isn't always to run up fearlessly, but to strategically avoid the Raelin boosted unit until later. I am open to names though, but they need to make sense thematically.
The problem is that we have a precedent of Strategic powers (which was partially set by the faction that these guys will be going with), so it feels very off to use the same wording for a completely different concept. I agree that the figures themselves could be using strategy (although now I am a little confused as to what the intended theme is and why they only get this bonus when a friend is in danger), but I don't think that the power name should. I'm sure that someone else will come up with a better power name than Fearless Charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Quote:
Before moving a Great Axe of Ironstone, if there is an engaged friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces, you may add 2 to that Great Axe of Ironstone's move.
This change is so small that I'll just leave it up to the SoV's preference when/if they approve it. It would function identically, so either could work.
I think that even just simple phrasing changes for powers can go a long way towards their presentation, and I personally think that it would be a good change even if this unit didn't pass SoV. If it doesn't bother you, though, then there's not much reason to change it, since they are mechanically identical.
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  #3178  
Old February 13th, 2019, 01:23 AM
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Simple solution

Tactical charge.

I'm sure I could come up with others if I was less tired.

~Dysole, feeling like that flavor plays well with tactical switch
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  #3179  
Old February 13th, 2019, 02:27 AM
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Re: Simple solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Quote:
Before moving a Great Axe of Ironstone, if there is an engaged friendly figure within 6 clear sight spaces, you may add 2 to that Great Axe of Ironstone's move.
This change is so small that I'll just leave it up to the SoV's preference when/if they approve it. It would function identically, so either could work.
I think that even just simple phrasing changes for powers can go a long way towards their presentation, and I personally think that it would be a good change even if this unit didn't pass SoV. If it doesn't bother you, though, then there's not much reason to change it, since they are mechanically identical.
It could just be my own ignorance, but neither version sounds better or more eloquent to me. They just like different ways of saying the same thing. I don't see how it will improve the presentation, unless there's some grammatical aspect of it that I'm not grasping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Tactical charge.

I'm sure I could come up with others if I was less tired.

~Dysole, feeling like that flavor plays well with tactical switch
I like this. Thanks.
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  #3180  
Old February 13th, 2019, 10:52 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

It's a good, solid pair of designs. Some things I'd like to mention though.

Imposing Threat is certainly similar to Combat Challenge, but unlike Astroking I think it's an elegant way to avoid the problem of the bad wording of Combat Challenge. I think you're making a mistake with the 2-dice reduction, though. A single die would be better. While that seems weak, trust me, no one wants to lose an attack die. Losing two is crushing, so it will be very, very rare anyone would attack something else. With one die it is a choice, a painful one, and that's a good thing.

Tenacity is really, really good. Really, really good. The defense bonus is fairly weak, but the offensive bonus is super huge. 80 points for 4? No way, not with that ability.
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