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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:28 PM
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How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Reserved for Final post after a general consensus is reached.

I will edit this first post to reflect the final verdict on how to scale designs statistics.

I'd like to limit discussion here to finding a way to quantify the statistic numbers for designs.

These include:

Size
Height
Life
Movement
Range
Attack
Defense

I know that at the moment there is no official scale to reference when attempting to place numbers on cards. Many statistics will not be entirely scalable. Though that should not stop us form having a rough estimate to help players design their own customs to be used with C3G; or for new Members of C3G so that their public designs are comparable with current designs.

Here is an example of what I am trying to develop here.

Value X = Range
Value 1 = 0-5 Feet.
Value 2 = 5-10 Feet.
Value 3 = 10-15 Feet.
Value 4 = 15-20 Feet.
Value 5 = 20-25 Feet.
Value 6 = 25-30 Feet.
Value 7 = 30-35 Feet.
Value 8 = 35-40 Feet.
Value 9 = 40-45 Feet.
Value 10 = 45-50 Feet.

I know that many of you are thinking... "there is no way these numbers correspond to the spaces representative distances". I can assure you, I feel the same way. And yet; we should have a rough estimate of what each space on the battlefield represents.

This is to prevent confusion when comparing statistics.
Movement compared to Range
For example movement should be a reflection of range. The only significant difference between the two is that one involves the movement of a figure given a fixed amount of time and the other involves the limited distance in which a figure can affect in one action.

If a figure is said to have a movement of 4 we know that given the quantified numbers above for range... that figure can move 15-20 feet in their movement phase. Well now we have something else to quantify. How long is the movement phase? To keep it simple I recommend we go with 6 seconds. 6 seconds has been the standard turn time for as long as I can remember spanning many table top games. So when we break this down we end up with 2.5 to 3.3 feet per second of travel. Well lets be honest. That is bs.

So clearly our original scale for range is off; but by how much? We know from looking at the terrain that lakes are not only 30 feet wide, we know mountains are wider than 40 feet. So how are we ever to come to a consensus.

I propose we work on a sliding scale.

Here is an example.


Value X = Range
Value 1 = 0-5 Feet.
Value 2 = 5-11 Feet.
Value 3 = 11-18 Feet.
Value 4 = 18-26 Feet.
Value 5 = 26-35 Feet.
Value 6 = 35-45 Feet.
Value 7 = 45-56 Feet.
Value 8 = 56-68 Feet.
Value 9 = 68-81 Feet.
Value 10 = 81-95 Feet.


For each additional range beyond the first I've simply added an additional foot. This represents two things.

One:
Scale in Heroscape changes the closer you are to your character. This is why our figures are so large and yet mountains are so small. Plus we cannot afford to have such large battlefields if they really were to scale. Otherwise our figures would need to be the size of a fly to be in scale. Even then we would need a basketball court to play with mountains.

Two:
Figures pick up speed. If you only have 6 seconds to move it stands to reason that the first second will be your slowest, right?

Lets recheck our numbers with the given changes.

Quote:
If a figure is said to have a movement of 4 we know that given the quantified numbers above for range... that figure can move 15-20 feet in their movement phase.
Now, however we know that our figures have changed. 15-20 feet has become 18-26 feet. This changes our 2.5 to 3.3 fps to 4.3 fps.

If we are still not sure if this lines up properly with how movement and range should work lets look at this a different way. Let us start with what we know to be true and work backward.

The fastest human reaches top speed at 50 meters. Usually around the 5 second mark. Using this information we know that the fastest humans would reach about 60 meters in 6 seconds. So if we compare this to our most recent scale.

Quote:
Value X = Range
Value 1 = 0-5 Feet.
Value 2 = 5-11 Feet.
Value 3 = 11-18 Feet.
Value 4 = 18-26 Feet.
Value 5 = 26-35 Feet.
Value 6 = 35-45 Feet.
Value 7 = 45-56 Feet.
Value 8 = 56-68 Feet.
Value 9 = 68-81 Feet.
Value 10 = 81-95 Feet.
We can see how the fastest Human would be stated for movement. Which puts them at a Move number of 8. We know from precedence that this is not where it should be. Batman who represents a design that is just about as fit as a human can be has a Move number of 6. This tells us that our scale is still off. So given that we know what our scale should be let's just slide the sliding scale.

Value 1 = 0-5 Feet.
Value 2 = 5-12 Feet.
Value 3 = 12-21 Feet.
Value 4 = 21-32 Feet.
Value 5 = 32-45 Feet.
Value 6 = 45-60 Feet.
Value 7 = 60-77 Feet.
Value 8 = 77-96 Feet.
Value 9 = 96-117 Feet.
Value 10 = 117-140 Feet.

Here I have changed the scale so that it starts with 5 feet between range 1 and 2 and increases by 2 feet more each increment. This scale places the goal of 150 feet by value of 6 still far from reach. It is time to entertain the possibility that the scale must be more complex.

Value 1 = 0-5 Feet. +5 feet
Value 2 = 5-14 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 9
Value 3 = 14-28 Feet. +X*1.7 feet or 14
Value 4 = 28-53 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 25
Value 5 = 53-95 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 42
Value 6 = 95-166 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 71
Value 7 = 166-287 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 121
Value 8 = 287-492 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 205
Value 9 = 492-841 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 349
Value 10 = 841-1434 Feet. + X*1.7 feet or 593
Where X equals the previous increment.

Now we have a more reasonable number representing our Value 6 slot. Batman just like an Olympic runner, could move in 6 seconds between 95 and 166 feet.

So we could use this scale, assuming that it is scaled right; to show that Superman with his move of 10 could be moving between 841-1434 feet in his 6 seconds. Could Superman do that? Of course. Does that mean our scale is spot on... No. The goal here is to either use a very rigid formula to support a scale. Or to just make one up. In either case once we develop a scale for one statistic it should be easier to guarantee that the project never slowly moves away from the scale represented by the first few designs.

Imagine not having a reference point when making designs. If we only ever use the previous designs but have no scale we will eventually end up swinging wildly away from a standard.

Plus it is fun to know that if Green Arrow has a range of 10, he can hit a figure around 1200 feet away. This kind of scale is important to comparing units with differing sets of abilities and ensuring that one does not overpower another with less impressive abilities.

The scale for other numbers like Attack and Defense will be even easier to determine. It will simply require that we set precedent similar to any website with power ratings. That way we know for instance that if Thor has a defense of 8 not much should be higher than that.

“Have you ever hoped for something? And held out for it against all the odds? Until everything you did was ridiculous? "
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  #2  
Old November 17th, 2012, 11:43 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

The one instance where scale kinda breaks down is with the Flashes. I mean, they move at light speed (I think sometimes they've even went beyond that, to go back in time). Moving twice as fast, or even 10 times faster (if using the sliding scale) than Batman doesn't make sense. But sometimes theme has to be sacrificed for gameplay. Plus we gotta remember that we're dealing with comics here. Things like "facts" don't matter to some writers. Like in one issue of JLA (from the early 2000's) where Superman went to the sun and back in ONE MINUTE. That would mean he was going like 20 times faster than the speed of light.

Same thing with arrows shooting as far as a sniper rifle can shoot a bullet. 10 range is just Heroscape's designated "holy crap that's really far away" distance. If a sniper could shoot 10 range, realistically the archers would have a range of 5 or 6. But that would seem incredibly weak. So we just treat them as if they have roughly equal range.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:53 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Defense might be broken up as such.

Value X = Comparable Design
Value 1 = Civilians
Value 2 = Trained (Street Thugs, Hydra Agents)
Value 3 = Hardy or resilient (Spider-Man, Nightcrawler)
Value 4 = Armored/Tough (Batman, Cyclops, Venom)
Value 5 = Heavy Armor/Defensive (Iron Man, Dredd)
Value 6 = Heavy Defense/Android (Vison, Loki, Hulk)
Value 7 = Indestructable (Juggernaut, Superman)
Value 8 = Supreme (Thor, Impossible man)
Value 9 = ect.
Value 10 = ect.

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Old November 17th, 2012, 11:57 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clembo2021 View Post
The one instance where scale kinda breaks down is with the Flashes. I mean, they move at light speed (I think sometimes they've even went beyond that, to go back in time). Moving twice as fast, or even 10 times faster (if using the sliding scale) than Batman doesn't make sense. But sometimes theme has to be sacrificed for gameplay. Plus we gotta remember that we're dealing with comics here. Things like "facts" don't matter to some writers. Like in one issue of JLA (from the early 2000's) where Superman went to the sun and back in ONE MINUTE. That would mean he was going like 20 times faster than the speed of light.

Same thing with arrows shooting as far as a sniper rifle can shoot a bullet. 10 range is just Heroscape's designated "holy crap that's really far away" distance. If a sniper could shoot 10 range, realistically the archers would have a range of 5 or 6. But that would seem incredibly weak. So we just treat them as if they have roughly equal range.
I'm ok with the notion that a figure or design could be faster or go farther than what the reflected scale shows. Just that the figures do not exceed the limits of their abilities within it.

It is ok for superman to have a speed of 10 even thought he could possibly have a speed of 50. The process is about setting up a good judge for new members or even non members to glance at when designing their own characters.

As far as the archers go. I'm totally ok with that range. It is possible given greater than average levels of strength or technology.

And there is nothing wrong with having multiple scales within a given statistic.

“Have you ever hoped for something? And held out for it against all the odds? Until everything you did was ridiculous? "
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Old November 18th, 2012, 09:44 AM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

The problem here is that stats are only part of the story. Powers boost/enhance stats and causes odd results sometimes.
Also theme can trump all, for instance Catwoman with nine lives. I understand what you are trying to accomplish but I personally like a less rigid approach.

Fumbling through the designs is just part of the process, well for me at least.
I really do appreciate your charts. That is very much like something I would do for my RPG.

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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:26 AM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

I really respect what you are trying to do here, the fact that the classic scape designers never had a discussion like this has always bothered me a bit. Not enough to stop playing the game mind you, but it bothered me none the less. Clembo is right though, many comic book writers never even bothered to try to stay somewhere within the realm of physical reality.

Side tangent: That Superman flying to the sun in back in less then a minute is one thing I saw done in one of the cartoon movies and that really irked me. I'm completely okay with taking a few scientific liberties or stretching the limits of physics a bit, that is the basis of how most of the characters got superpowers after all. But just completely disregarding all aspects of reality and common sense crossed the line for me. Which is why I like some comic books/cartoons a lot and others not much at all. Batman has always been way better than Superman in my opinion, for just that fact. Batman, while outlandish in its own way, tried to stay somewhat grounded in reality which made it a much more exciting and interesting story.

Anyway, trying to definitively quantify the superhero universe will be difficult as a result. So many different writers have done an issue for a character at one time or another that you are bound to find a few outliers that someone can point to and say, so-and-so did this once so the C3G stat should be a 9.

The other good point Clembo hit on was the range issue with guns. In reality, a sniper rifle would be able to accurately fire a shot at any place it could see on any of our small battlefield maps. The modern ones, in the hands of a professional, can shoot a target over a mile away and our boards will never scale that big. However, that same shot takes quite a bit of time and concentration to set up, which you would not get in the middle of an active battle zone. So I always looked at the range number more as a distance that figure can remain accurate with that weapon while under duress. Sure they can shoot at you from much further away, but with all the chaos and action going on around them they just can't line up an accurate shot quick enough in the time allotted for their 'turn' in the game, so the bullets just fly harmlessly by at any greater range than the one given on their card.

Even with that said though, their are some physical limits that should not be overlooked for certain weapons, pistols have a very short range of accuracy due to the length of their barrels and amount of gunpowder in their shells. Rifles on the other hand are much more accurate at longer range due to the longer barrel and larger gunpowder load. Shotguns have no rifling in their barrels, so even though the barrel is long a solid slug would not be accurate for very far. For a scatter shot, the very nature of all the little shot pellets being fired as one causes a loss in momentum coming out of the barrel which limits its effective range. Arrows though, will fly straight and true for a pretty good distance in the hands of a master archer, which is what we are always dealing with. You can even arch the shot for greater distances with a great deal of accuracy if you know what you are doing and practice the shot enough.

Last edited by Yodaking; November 18th, 2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
So I always looked at the range number more as a distance that figure can remain accurate with that weapon while under duress.


That's how I have always seen range in Heroscape.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Fun exercise. Nothing I'll base designs on, though.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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Old November 18th, 2012, 01:48 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
So I always looked at the range number more as a distance that figure can remain accurate with that weapon while under duress.


That's how I have always seen range in Heroscape.
If this was the case why do we roll attack dice? Why would we not just assume that our figures are accurate and only roll defense dice?

Clearly there is more to this.

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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:10 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Just because you can be accurate does not mean that you are every time. The targets are moving ones, the shooter may also be moving or off balance. Furthermore just because you hit your target does not mean you hit a vital spot. Rolling no skulls at all represents a complete miss for whatever reason. Bad job aiming, target moved, distracted in some way, etc. The more attack dice you are rolling the less likely this is to occur. Rolling at least 1 skull generally means you hit something, you just might not have done any significant damage.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:42 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
The problem here is that stats are only part of the story. Powers boost/enhance stats and causes odd results sometimes.
Also theme can trump all, for instance Catwoman with nine lives. I understand what you are trying to accomplish but I personally like a less rigid approach.

Fumbling through the designs is just part of the process, well for me at least.
I really do appreciate your charts. That is very much like something I would do for my RPG.
At most this would be a ruff guide to compare apples to apples. If you are designing a unit... and you think to yourself "I want this guy to take punches from hulk no problem" you can check the scale and see where he would need to line up with the current scale.

We know hulk knocks out a 6 Attack; however hulk can also hammer out much more with wounds on him. Not many designs can take that kind of beating. When you look at your scale for defense. You will notice that being able to take hits from hulk and shrug them off might not be the best choice. It places you off the charts for C3G.

You might think that we are done here; and that is the catch. Scale is only to represent what things could look like to be directly proportionate. Superheroes are not comparable in that sense; so scale represents a more broad compartmentalization of power levels.

Using the example above. A designer may say "hmm I'm not going to be able to block hulks hits and remain within the normal boundary of C3G's defensive scale" then think "well what If I use something other than a flat defense number?". This designer might give his design 6 Defense Number with an ability like Kinetic Shielding.

Kinetic Shielding.
When rolling defense dice against an attack with more than 6 attack dice, you may add one additional shield for each blank rolled.

So here we have a design that utilized the Scale to keep his character in line with C3G.

The scale is just a baseline. It only gives you a starting point to compare your designs to what is already out there. Diverging from the scale is not only natural it is expected. However you have to know how much and from what point on the scale you might be diverging from.

In the absence of special powers we expect our designs to line up with a natural order of power. Scale gives us a tool to compare our non-comparable units.

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Old November 18th, 2012, 02:51 PM
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Re: How to scale Statistics in C3G.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Just because you can be accurate does not mean that you are every time. The targets are moving ones, the shooter may also be moving or off balance. Furthermore just because you hit your target does not mean you hit a vital spot. Rolling no skulls at all represents a complete miss for whatever reason. Bad job aiming, target moved, distracted in some way, etc. The more attack dice you are rolling the less likely this is to occur. Rolling at least 1 skull generally means you hit something, you just might not have done any significant damage.
I think this just helps solidify the point that having a scale represents all these things at once. How you define the scale is not really important so long as you use it to judge a baseline. The scale can represent the physical limits of an ability, or it can represent the comfortable range of normal use. I always looked at it as if it was the chosen power level. Just like most of our abilities, they are limited to remain practical in a game setting. That does not preclude them from being quantified though.

What I want everyone to understand is that we already have a scale for each stat. We just use the cards that have previously been designed and are rolling around in our heads. How could it not make more sense to write that scale down, so that we are all on the same page?

The one this is used so often on is movement. Everyone knows humans don't move more than 6. But why? No one wants to know why?

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