The Book of Master Splinter

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by japes

Or a "you control" and leave it open...Give Splinter another teammate...like Pied Piper has him under his control. It would be like the Rat King episode of the original series...

That still leaves problematic turn-chain stuff with Pied Piper and Splinter. And it would be an even bigger problem if someone designed a second Unique Rodent Hero on Splinter's level. Hartley's not intended or costed to be a faction OM Hub for mid-level hitters.

[Lazy Orang]

Yeah, I think I'm probably moving away from Master of Ninjitsu at this stage. Even if I kept it, I'd probably keep more to the bonuses based on other people rolling skulls rather than the movement aspect, as that was never really something I was set on.

[Lazy Orang]

Alright, really liking the way we're moving here, but I had a little bit of an epiphany last night - a hopefully effective way of getting across that 'taking advantage of the opponent being off balance' theme that I wanted to convey to make it a bit more interesting than standard Master Martial Artist and get across a more specific fighting style than 'this guy is good at martial arts 'n' stuff' (blame it on my brother - he's fairly into martial arts and the principles of different fighting styles, and when you add on top of that that he watches MMA, then this kind of stuff rubs off and the idea of getting across the specific feel of a fighting style ala Batroc the Leaper rather than just a specific 'good at Martial Arts' power, sounds really cool to me ). I think I've found a way of doing this which is simple, elegant, unique and doesn't involve a lot of clunky dice rolling - so, here's my proposal for an updated Splinter (complete with Yodaking's suggestion for FD).

MASTER SPLINTER

RODENT
UNIQUE HERO
SENSEI
WISE
MEDIUM 4

5 LIFE
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 4
DEFENCE 5

WISDOM OF THE RAT

Once per round, when an Order Marker is removed from any Ninja Army Card you control, you may immediately place that Order Marker on this army card or any Ninja Army Card you control. When you roll the 20-sided die for a Ninja you control, you may add or subtract 1 from the roll.

FATHER'S DEVOTION

Opponent’s figures adjacent to Master Splinter may not attack any Ninja Turtles you control with two or more wound markers on their card. When a Ninja Turtle you control receives two or more wounds from a single attack or special power, Master Splinter may immediately move up to 5 spaces. Master Splinter will not take any leaving engagement attacks when moving with Father's Devotion.

NINJITSU STRIKE/BALANCE BREAKING/KUZUSHI/BETTER NAME?

When an adjacent opponent's figure rolls attack dice for a normal attack against Master Splinter, or rolls defence dice against an attack from Master Splinter, if they roll more skulls than shields and Master Splinter is not destroyed, that figure receives a wound. (We could tone that down to an unblockable attack die if we feel that necessary.)

*******************

Also, I'm absolutely okay with Pied Piper controlling Splinter - a bit weird, yeah, but some nice, silly fun.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Also, I'm absolutely okay with Pied Piper controlling Splinter - a bit weird, yeah, but some nice, silly fun.

I'd agree, but it really is a balance issue for Pied Piper. He shouldn't have beefy bonding options. His bonding lets you get away with turn chains deliberately, because it's not a huge deal for a bonus Rat Swarm turn. Mixing in higher end Heroes would be problematic.

Anyhow, really like the direction this is taking otherwise.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I'd agree, but it really is a balance issue for Pied Piper. He shouldn't have beefy bonding options. His bonding lets you get away with turn chains deliberately, because it's not a huge deal for a bonus Rat Swarm turn. Mixing in higher end Heroes would be problematic.

Anyhow, really like the direction this is taking otherwise.

Thanks! And yeah, I do get that, but on the other hand, he's probably not going to be seeing any more Rodent Heroes, and even if he does, he's not exactly going to be hard to kill - its a fragile as hell bonding chain. Definitely worth a test, but I'm not really concerned, and chaining it with Cold is tough anyway as I often find he just doesn't get the wounds to activate his leadership. Chaining with Waller is stronger, but starting to get expensive now and Splinter doesn't benefit from her powers (and Pied Piper doesn't benefit that much, either). Plus, in that kind of build, one of Splinter's greatest assets (being a support figure for the TMNT) just doesn't come into play at all. I'm happy leaving it as a weird, funny exploit build.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Thanks! And yeah, I do get that, but on the other hand, he's probably not going to be seeing any more Rodent Heroes, and even if he does, he's not exactly going to be hard to kill - its a fragile as hell bonding chain. Definitely worth a test, but I'm not really concerned, and chaining it with Cold is tough anyway as I often find he just doesn't get the wounds to activate his leadership. Chaining with Waller is stronger, but starting to get expensive now and Splinter doesn't benefit from her powers (and Pied Piper doesn't benefit that much, either). Plus, in that kind of build, one of Splinter's greatest assets (being a support figure for the TMNT) just doesn't come into play at all. I'm happy leaving it as a weird, funny exploit build.

On Cold vs Waller... why not both? Cold doesn't actually need OMs (which we may also want to change). I don't see anything on the cards that prevents you from doing this with an OM:

Reveal on Waller -> turn with Pied Piper (ARGUS) -> turn with Splinter and a Rat Swarm (Sonic Mind Control)-> turn with Cold (ARGUS) -> try for another turn with Pied Piper/Splinter/Rat Swarm (you can kill one of your own Rat Swarms for an easy Cold Gun sacrifice, in a pinch)

Like you say, that doesn't leverage Splinter's Ninja synergies. I think the more probable thing to do is just mixing Robot and Pied Piper into a TMNT build. The Cold/Waller thing starts looking pretty good if we get a second good Rodent Hero, though.

I can think of at least two squirrels that merit designing, though we could cheat and call them Squirrels instead of Rodents. Other Rodents don't spring to mind, but it's short-sighted to design like we're never going to see more, and a second one on Splinter's level would definitely start causing some issues.

Also, if you go back and check out Pied Piper's thread, you'll find the old-school Heroes talking about how they don't think there'll be more Rodents. You don't really know what people are gonna get up to designing six years from now.

Even setting turn chain stuff aside, it's a little crazy to let an 80 point figure be Rat Professor X (which can be done safely from the SZ, since there's no range restriction on Piper's rat control). If we don't patch it now, we'll have to patch it when we get a second decent Rodent, and at that point we're changing mechanics that we had to test with Splinter. I'm in favor of saving ourselves some trouble and doing a little future-proofing now by just patching Piper.

[quozl]

You could just make a Splinter a Rat. He probably doesn't like being called a rodent.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by quozl

You could just make a Splinter a Rat. He probably doesn't like being called a rodent.

Kind of breaks precedent, when our Rat Swarms are Rodents....

[Yodaking]

I like the concept you came up with for being off balance (more skulls rolled than shields) and the more scaled back counter strike being just a flat 1W. For Father's Devotion you should use Ronin's wording proposal over mine as he is our Final Editing guy. On the species issue, I know the Turtles are already turtles, but will BeeBop & Rocksteady be a Warthog & a Rhino or will they be mutations or something more generic? Maybe we let the Turtles be turtles and everything else changed by the mutagen gets a generic term.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I like the concept you came up with for being off balance (more skulls rolled than shields) and the more scaled back counter strike being just a flat 1W. For Father's Devotion you should use Ronin's wording proposal over mine as he is our Final Editing guy. On the species issue, I know the Turtles are already turtles, but will BeeBop & Rocksteady be a Warthog & a Rhino or will they be mutations or something more generic? Maybe we let the Turtles be turtles and everything else changed by the mutagen gets a generic term.

That feels inconsistent to me, and Splinter feels, iconically, a rat - I wouldn't want to change his species from Rodent here, and as Ronin said, this has the potential for being an issue for Pied Piper in the future anyway. Don't know about Bebop and Rocksteady as I'm not familiar with them (they weren't in the 2003 adaptation), but weren't they humans turned mutated into animal-like things rather than vice versa? In that case I'd imagine Mutation would be more fitting for them.

[Yodaking]

Well in the 2003 cartoon, what was Splinter originally? I've seen both versions of his origin now. One where he was a human rival to Shredder who became a rat, and one where he was the rat pet that became a humanoid. Always thought the second one was pretty stupid myself as a pet rat couldn't learn Ninjitsu, much less become a master of the art form, just by watching his master practice.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Well in the 2003 cartoon, what was Splinter originally? I've seen both versions of his origin now. One where he was a human rival to Shredder who became a rat, and one where he was the rat pet that became a humanoid. Always thought the second one was pretty stupid myself as a pet rat couldn't learn Ninjitsu, much less become a master of the art form, just by watching his master practice.

He was the second in the 2003 cartoon. I know both versions exist, but I thought it was the 80s cartoon that differed from the comics here?
And yes, you're right, it is pretty ridiulous, but it's something you learn to live with, and I personally prefer a Splinter who's never been a human and whose rivalry with Shredder comes from loyalty to his own master.