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  #4441  
Old January 25th, 2021, 12:42 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Having participated in one of the tests with the Wulfing Hunters, I think that they played pretty uniquely and are promising. The unengaged requirement for the Hunter heroes should limit Himmelskralle's potential a good deal, positioning Arktos and other ranged Hunters as the best bonding options (at least in theory). I can't say that I'm crazy about the self-bonding potential (especially since it can let the same figure take two turns in a row if they killed something adjacent), but those are rare cases and it's something that I would pay attention to in testing.

Thematically, I don't really like "Silent Stalker" as an explanation for why being adjacent to any figure makes them visible. I feel like something incorporating camouflage paints a better theme in that regard, but that's just a mild preference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
They seem to be in a good place and I was able to order the sculpts in to confirm they are indeed the right size and look great alongside our existing scape. I haven't checked availability since I did initially 2 weeks ago but I don't except any major decline.
Since the last time that you checked their availability was 2 weeks ago, I would recommend checking it again at the time of submission. Hopefully it didn't drop in that timespan, but it's best to make sure.
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  #4442  
Old January 25th, 2021, 01:36 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

"unengaged squad of Wulfing Hunters" doesn't work, but I understand what it means and Editing can make it work.

The stats and powers are all pretty good. I like the concept and feel here, and the push-and-pull of how the powers work with engagements. Promising design.
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  #4443  
Old January 25th, 2021, 01:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Excellent! Can I ask for help on the wording? Just... heroscape grammatical help I guess.

Thanks for feedback on the tensions with their playstyle
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  #4444  
Old January 25th, 2021, 02:30 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
Excellent! Can I ask for help on the wording? Just... heroscape grammatical help I guess.
Something like:

HUNTER'S HOWL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with the Wulfling Hunters, if at least two Wulfing Hunters you control are engaged, you may take another turn with the Wulfing Hunters or a Hunter Hero you control. Any figures taking a turn with Hunter's Howl must be unengaged at the start of their turn.
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  #4445  
Old January 30th, 2021, 06:23 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm looking for some feedback on this addition to the Yokai faction that @Captain Stupendous and I have been testing. Despite initial concerns that it would be very overpowered for its points, we found that the design is surprisingly balanced.


Worth particular mention is that Peaceful Protector affects all figures, not just your own, which means that OM1 on the Kirin is often a bit of a risk, despite wanting to take an early turn to set up the defense aura. This is exacerbated by the fact that the Judgment Special Attack only affects figures with revealed Order Markers: if you win initiative, then there are no targets at all for it to hit, and you have to make a normal attack into a figure with boosted defense. Saving it for later turns is much safer, but then you're generally losing out on the defensive bonus for your own figures.

In theory, this figure would really excel as a counter to bread and butter Common Squads, especially when paired with other Yokai like Kincho and Seimei who can teleport it into a starting zone. We've found that it plays a bit like a melee Zelrig; you might be able to take some LEAs and get a strong bomb, but you're really leaving yourself open to counter attack if you do so. The high durability from 5 defense has been found to be instrumental in making it viable to play, and against certain armies with OM flexibility like Kato, the Kirin is more of a liability than anything else.

For those unfamiliar with the legend,
the Kirin the Kirin
is a divine mythical creature that embodies goodness, omens of luck, and prosperity and protection. It has also been compared to the Western Unicorn quite a bit, for a further idea of the theme and significance here. Some Buddhist-inspired takes on it say that it's so peaceful that "it will never tread on a single blade of grass," and the appearance of the Kirin is also said to be associated with the coming or passing of an illustrious ruler. It's not all peace and good will, though; when it or a righteous ally are threatened, it's quick to punish the wicked with holy flames bursting from its mouth and encasing its entire body, represented by the Kirin's Judgment Special Attack that can only target "active" figures.

Testing has shown that the Kirin really excels as another Yokai with the potential to hit multiple figures (similar to how Ibaraki-doji is "the attacker" in most current builds, which could use some more variety), although it's actually very reasonable for its points. Thanks in advance for your time and comments; I'd like to start feeling out potential concerns and seeing how VC is going to react as I continue to refine and further test the design.
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  #4446  
Old February 1st, 2021, 01:19 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That's a rather interesting design, though I can't help but feel it's a design in search of a purpose. It has the stats of a brute plus a special attack that affects stuff nearby, but it also has a potent cheerleader power. Something feels extraneous to what the unit is supposed to be.

Also, it's strange for me that the Kirin boosts the defense of units it attacks with its normal attack, but it's probably not worth a phrase to avoid that.
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  #4447  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 01:12 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Hmm. That's a fair criticism; the defense bonus is partially thematic given the Kirin's lore, but I think that it also has a compelling gameplay effect (along with slotting the design more nicely into the HS Yokai template of a revealed OM power and matching its general's gameplay themes). I can see how the three aspects of the design feel like a bit much for one unit, especially since the SA is specifically worse on earlier OMs yet the defense power is specifically better on them, but I'm not sure how to change that without cutting out a lot of the theme and utility of the figure in a Yokai build. The SA is important to give them another multi-attacker, but the defense bonus is also very useful with Abe no Seimei's ability to shift around revealed OMs and keep their limited figures alive for longer. The Tor-Kul-Na level stats were found to be necessary to let it function as another centerpiece to the faction, too--early testing showed that 6L/4D was simply too weak for the Kirin to be a worthwhile investment.

Do you think that the design toes these three lines to the point of being detracting, or that it can work as a jack of a few trades? The easiest thing to take away without damaging the Kirin's role in a Yokai build would be the normal attack (it needs the tanky stats as a "melee cheerleader"), but I don't think that really addresses your concern here.

I'm not a huge fan of the Kirin boosting the defense of figures that it attacks, either (I've found that it's not super intuitive for players and it just kind of feels weird that the Kirin is willing to attack them anyway if it's boosting their defense), but I agree that it probably isn't worth the extra text for a relatively small exclusion.
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  #4448  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 10:10 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I see the thematic strength, and it's not unheard of for heroes to fill multiple roles (Grimnak, Su-Bak-Na, etc). It's a red flag, not stop sign. And the Yokai faction is pretty weird.

The defensive stats are needed for both roles, but not really Attack. You might want to consider dropping Attack to 4, which would focus the design a bit more on defender and cheerleader, and would make the oddity of attacking something it's giving the defense boost to a bit less likely.
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  #4449  
Old February 3rd, 2021, 12:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I do like the idea of dropping the normal attack to 4. The bump to 5 was to make the figure more consistent, but decreasing the incentive to use it over the SA makes sense considering the theme of the character, and it helps make it more apparent that Yokai players should spread out Order Markers early in each round rather than loading up entirely on the Kirin. I'll experiment around with it to make sure that it doesn't need to result in a price drop.

Thanks for elaborating on your thoughts! I appreciate it.
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  #4450  
Old February 12th, 2021, 09:58 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



The latest tweaks to Elbad. Changed the range of Mindless Pack Command to 3 (was 5) so he has to be more 'in the action' and less 'in your start zone'. Changed his Range to 5 (was 4) to give him more opportunities to attack when he does move to keep up with the Pack. Changed his points to 50 (was 80) because he's just not 80-points strong, but 50 does still require a two Thrall trade-off.


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  #4451  
Old February 12th, 2021, 02:28 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I was always ok with Elbad being a figure that sits in the start zone until cleanup, but as noted then it makes Elbad only good for Thrall armies. Though I would argue that's true anyway. Lots of other ways to spend 50 pts as a fill-in, even amongst just Udead. But this dynamic version with a range aura on Mindless Pack Command is cool too. My only concern is that I'm not convinced he's worth using order markers to position.

I still don't see much use out of Necromatic Nexus. Kind of ok on rare occasions, I suspect. I won't really know without testing.

Other tweaks all look good. I don't have any complaints other than a theoryscaping concern for overall usefulness.
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  #4452  
Old February 19th, 2021, 09:41 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I was running numbers for availability for various miniatures and saw that the sculpt for an old (and contentious) design is now more plentiful, which opens up new directions for the unit. Before, moderate availability inhibited giving each figure "just one life," since each player would want to draft more copies than was reasonable for the availability numbers.



The original draft was submitted to SoV about a year and 4 months ago. This version is very similar, but I'll outline the key changes that might change things this go around:
  1. Most importantly, Seishin Samurai are only spawned once on the board per miniature. Beforehand, they could be spawned again after death.
  2. Honor Beyond Death now more closely mirrors the Ebon Armor mechanically to avoid any new rules issues.
  3. The price was dropped by 5 points to account for them being weaker than before. I played many games with the earlier iterations, and I can't see them being worth the same points with such a large nerf (25 is just preferable to me as a more conservative decrease than going down to 20 right now).
The biggest issues for the unit last time were the perceived similarity to the Ebon Armor (my hope is that them spawning only once per figure emphasizes their differences even more), rules issues without the new normal/special/LEA limit, and potentially encouraging unfun gameplay. This draft addresses most of those complaints and is very similar to what I've tested the most, but I'd like to get feelers on this unit again since it has been so long and it was a contentious debate at submission before.

If the consensus is that these changes aren't enough or that the design no longer hits the right notes, then I'll take it back for a heavier redesign, but starting here feels like the natural continuation now that its stock has improved.
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