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  #325  
Old June 6th, 2021, 03:23 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Finally got around to playing 3x Zettian Guard, DW7K, Warden 816, HSGs, and Isamu. Against 3x Arrow Gruts, Krug, Raelin SotM, 3x Swog, Otonashi.

Don't have a full writeup, but here's the gist. Team HSG won initative every round, and opened by moving the HSGs forward onto higher ground to give better positioning for Last Wills. Gruts and Krug moved up. Zettians and Warden moved up. Gruts and Swog moved up and took pot shots but didn't hit anything. Zettians took the Move glyph and Warden took a shot at Krug (1). Raelin moved onto a perch in the middle of the Gruts/Swog.

R2 Warden rolls 5/5 on Evisceraxe vs Krug who whiffs (6) despite Raelin. Krug gets his revenge on the Warden and a couple Zettians, but they take him down before he can safely cross to the Kelda glyph. Gruts start knocking down Zettians, who can't hit anything but Krug apparently, then DW7K gets an opportunity to run in and take out a few Gruts. Rolls a 1.

R3 HSGs revive Warden, who is able to immediately move into position to shoot. Between Warden and Zettians, they take out all 3 Swogs before even killing a single AG. AGs continue to thin Zettians by the end of the round, when Warden gets negated and dies, too.

R4 Warden is brought back again for his Range and with Swogs gone, Gruts are dropping. When Warden dies (again again) there are 3-4 Zettians and Isamu left at the end of the round against about 4 AGs, Raelin, Otonashi.

R5 Raelin takes over and cleans up Zettians before heading to heal 3 from Kelda. The last Zettian puts 2 right back on her but is taken out by AGs who then move right over to Isamu and get him first attack with 2 skulls vs an 8.


All told, the twice-revived Warden ended up killing a Swog, a couple Arrow Gruts, and a few wounds to Raelin. About 125 points. Not too shabby, even though Team HSG lost.


This was a good showing for Last Will. One thing I noticed, though, is that the current version works a lot better with bonding Heroes. Since it doesn't require an OM to get a revive, you can keep all your OMs on the bonding Squad and get full use out of the Hero for the round (assuming they don't take 1 and die). Non-bonding Heroes get telegraphed too much, IMO, since you have to revive them at the beginning of the round, then you'll probably want your OMs there since they'll die no matter what at the end. I think we should reconsider a version that revives before/after the HSG turn. Even though I used an OM early to position the HSGs, it's about the same as taking 1 extra OM to get into the action after being revived. Also, this would even out the power level between reviving bonding and non-bonding Heroes.


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  #326  
Old June 7th, 2021, 12:23 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

The Deathwalkers/Zettian Infantry are probably the most obvious combo there, but I think that your observation that Bonding Heroes are the best candidates is a very astute one. It's also interesting that Warden 816 was brought back again just for his stats--that's definitely something interesting that we'll have to consider.

Allowing an immediate extra turn in the vein of Iskra and Retchets would fix that issue for many figures, but also be a very large buff to the Soul-Guides' power level. I'm not sure that I would be comfortable with something along those lines without a D20 roll, which might hurt the Soul-Guides more than help them.

Alternatively, we could always look at changing the leftbox stats of the revived hero like the Werewolf Lord to disrupt most bonding synergies, or simply treat this as a case of the HSGs getting better with the addition of bonding, despite lacking it themselves.
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  #327  
Old June 7th, 2021, 09:33 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The Deathwalkers/Zettian Infantry are probably the most obvious combo there, but I think that your observation that Bonding Heroes are the best candidates is a very astute one. It's also interesting that Warden 816 was brought back again just for his stats--that's definitely something interesting that we'll have to consider.
I wouldn't read too much into the Warden being brought back twice: given the state of the game it just made more sense to use Range to have a pick of targets and wider threat area for Raelin, rather than trying to run her down with 7K when she could play keepaway for 3 turns knowing he'd blow up no matter what. That said, raw stats can make a double-revive worthwhile, and Warden's are solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Allowing an immediate extra turn in the vein of Iskra and Retchets would fix that issue for many figures, but also be a very large buff to the Soul-Guides' power level. I'm not sure that I would be comfortable with something along those lines without a D20 roll, which might hurt the Soul-Guides more than help them.
The eternal struggle with Last Will, for me, has been whether or not HSGs are worth an OM before the endgame. On the one hand, I like the idea that a "free" resurrection means they can position first and ask questions later. On the other, you're spending an early OM and giving up that board position, instead of spending one later on the revived unit to get it into roughly the same position, so the only practical difference is the starting position of whoever you Willed. Obviously the immediate free turn drastically cuts down on the need for a preemptive OM, but so far the alternative doesn't feel like as much of an improvement as I had hoped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Alternatively, we could always look at changing the leftbox stats of the revived hero like the Werewolf Lord to disrupt most bonding synergies, or simply treat this as a case of the HSGs getting better with the addition of bonding, despite lacking it themselves.
That's an interesting option (that may or may not have been touched on before?). I certainly want to see more tests as-is, but I'd also prefer their default best armies not to be bonding ones, since that's already the strongest synergy in the game.


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  #328  
Old June 11th, 2021, 01:59 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The Deathwalkers/Zettian Infantry are probably the most obvious combo there, but I think that your observation that Bonding Heroes are the best candidates is a very astute one. It's also interesting that Warden 816 was brought back again just for his stats--that's definitely something interesting that we'll have to consider.
I wouldn't read too much into the Warden being brought back twice: given the state of the game it just made more sense to use Range to have a pick of targets and wider threat area for Raelin, rather than trying to run her down with 7K when she could play keepaway for 3 turns knowing he'd blow up no matter what. That said, raw stats can make a double-revive worthwhile, and Warden's are solid.
I was mostly thinking of some of the other strange implications where revivals could be used in very different ways. For example, the MacDirk Warriors would very much benefit from being able to revive their chosen highlander in the starting zone and get another two rounds of 7 attack off...

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Alternatively, we could always look at changing the leftbox stats of the revived hero like the Werewolf Lord to disrupt most bonding synergies, or simply treat this as a case of the HSGs getting better with the addition of bonding, despite lacking it themselves.
That's an interesting option (that may or may not have been touched on before?). I certainly want to see more tests as-is, but I'd also prefer their default best armies not to be bonding ones, since that's already the strongest synergy in the game.
I think that most unique mostly-standalone designs like this will probably perform better in a bonding army than a different one. Last Will is particularly well-suited to bonding, though, of course.

Given the somewhat narrow scope of small or medium heroes you'd want to revive, I think that I'm okay with that. The unit still seems like fun in a casual setting, and so long as it's balanced with bringing back bonding heroes, I'm fine with it having a little place there as well so long as it doesn't drive up the price too much.
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  #329  
Old June 11th, 2021, 09:11 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Ooh, MacDirks, that's a cool synergy!

The HSGs have some synergy with bonding units (unless the immediate turn was one and done instead of sticking for the round), but that doesn't mean the final version has to be the best version of bonding synergy, either. I'd rather they do what they're designed to do, and just happen to be good with bonding as a side effect, if that makes sense.


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  #330  
Old June 14th, 2021, 10:35 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Are you guys at all interested in playtests from members of the general public? I thought this unit looked fun enough to include in a game over the weekend, and I should be able to remember enough to write a decent report.
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  #331  
Old June 14th, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Trails View Post
Are you guys at all interested in playtests from members of the general public? I thought this unit looked fun enough to include in a game over the weekend, and I should be able to remember enough to write a decent report.
Absolutely!! The more the merrier, and as the thread title states they're in playtesting. (Though someone needs to take over the playtesting thread and update it.) We look forward to your writeup.


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  #332  
Old June 18th, 2021, 12:19 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Trails View Post
Are you guys at all interested in playtests from members of the general public? I thought this unit looked fun enough to include in a game over the weekend, and I should be able to remember enough to write a decent report.
Absolutely!! The more the merrier, and as the thread title states they're in playtesting. (Though someone needs to take over the playtesting thread and update it.) We look forward to your writeup.
Excellent. It took me longer than expected to find the time to write a report, but I was able to provide considerably better detail; I played this game online, and I was able to recreate many of the moves after some searching. I'll post this to the playtesting thread as well.
----------------------
PLAYTEST REPORT
475 points

Map: THE BOROGROVES by Typhon2222
Glyphs: Valda (West), Wannok (East)

Army A (southern start zone): Sir Gilbert, MacDirk Warriors x4, Honored Soul Guides
Army B (northern start zone): Kato Katsuro, Ashigaru Harquebus x3, Ashigaru Yari x2, Isamu

Survivors:
Kato (2 life)
2 Harquebusmen
Isamu

Summary:
Spoiler Alert!

Power Usage:
LAST WILL: used round 4 on Sir Gilbert; approximately 130 points worth of damage inflicted
STEALTH FLYING: used three times to scale uneven terrain
Normal Attack: used once each; two wounds inflicted

Comments:
The MacDirk Warriors were my first thought when I saw this unit, and the Soul Guides worked about as well as expected here. Last Will effectively gave the MacDirks a precious second chance at victory after losing Gilbert, but I made some mistakes that prevented me from capitalizing on it. I would be willing to pay more than 50 points for the Honored Soul Guides in this specific composition, but I think that Raelin would be a better investment for most armies as the Soul Guides' points increase.

I would consider this one of the HSGs' stronger uses: the MacDirks love having their champion alive with a single life, hate losing said champion early in a game, and don't mind leaving the champion in a different area of the map with the Soul Guides; moreover, Sir Gilbert can move the Soul Guides without spending an Order Marker. Interestingly, the MacDirk army was transformed into something reminiscent of a Wildwoods army, although the Soul Guides are easier to stamp out than are the Wildwood Runners, and it is significantly more dangerous to leave the MacDirks' Champion alive with low life than it is to treat the Wildwood Monarch that way.

Finally, I agree with the thought that the HSGs are much better with bonding. Maybe you could give them the ability to freely move Order Markers onto a figure they revive on a turn-by-turn basis, similar to Rygarn's Chrono Key. That way, a player doesn't lose as much if a non-bonding Last Will recipient dies early.
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Old June 26th, 2021, 02:08 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Thanks for the playtest, Blue Trails! It was a super interesting read, and I think that you're spot-on with your analysis that the MacDirks are likely one of the recipients who benefit the most from Last Will.

Moving Soul-Guides via Gilbert is a neat complementary synergy that I had missed. I think that it would be worthwhile for us to compile synergy charts for the OPs once figures enter playtesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Trails View Post
Finally, I agree with the thought that the HSGs are much better with bonding. Maybe you could give them the ability to freely move Order Markers onto a figure they revive on a turn-by-turn basis, similar to Rygarn's Chrono Key. That way, a player doesn't lose as much if a non-bonding Last Will recipient dies early.
Hmm. I'm not sure that this would significantly improve their non-bonding uses competitively, given that if the revived hero does die early, then you're left with a bunch of Order Markers on the Soul-Guides. Unless, of course, your suggestion was that they can move the markers there from any card, or do something along these lines:

Quote:
After revealing an Order Marker on an Army Card you control, instead of taking a turn normally, you may take a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides' revived hero.
That sort of an idea is interesting, and it certainly would help to even out their combos in the tournament format if you don't have to worry about allocating OMs to the revived hero. I think that it's also significantly stronger in scenarios, and it might necessitate a price bump as a result.
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Old June 28th, 2021, 10:45 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Thanks for the playtest, Blue Trails! It was a super interesting read, and I think that you're spot-on with your analysis that the MacDirks are likely one of the recipients who benefit the most from Last Will.

Moving Soul-Guides via Gilbert is a neat complementary synergy that I had missed. I think that it would be worthwhile for us to compile synergy charts for the OPs once figures enter playtesting.
I'm glad I could help. For what it's worth, I would appreciate any synergy listing this project can provide; as an outsider, I spend little time with these units compared to the members working to produce them, and I wouldn't want to overlook anything important while playtesting. As an example, I almost missed the synergy with Sir Gilbert, myself, as I can't remember the last time I've seen Gilbert played alongside any Unique Jandar-following squad.

Quote:
Hmm. I'm not sure that this would significantly improve their non-bonding uses competitively, given that if the revived hero does die early, then you're left with a bunch of Order Markers on the Soul-Guides. Unless, of course, your suggestion was that they can move the markers there from any card, or do something along these lines:

Quote:
After revealing an Order Marker on an Army Card you control, instead of taking a turn normally, you may take a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides' revived hero.
That sort of an idea is interesting, and it certainly would help to even out their combos in the tournament format if you don't have to worry about allocating OMs to the revived hero. I think that it's also significantly stronger in scenarios, and it might necessitate a price bump as a result.
If I had articulated my power suggestion more effectively, it would have read something like this:
Quote:
Before revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, you may move that Order Marker to the Army Card of a figure you control that was targeted by the Honored Soul-Guides' Last Will power this round and reveal it there, instead.
My intention was to create a mild effect appropriate for a 50-point unit with two solid powers; in the event of the Soul-Guides' resurrected hero's early destruction, their player can take a couple turns with the remaining Soul-Guide as a consolation instead of losing a round's worth of board control. I think your second interpretation is a nice way to incentivize reviving non-bonding figures, though, and I wouldn't mind a fitting price increase because I would already pay more than 50 points for them in certain bonding armies. However, I would prefer to actually move Order Markers to the revived hero's Army Card so that non-bonding figures such as van Nessing with Order Marker-based powers aren't denied full benefit; if you only bring back a hero for a single round, you might as well be able to use all of its special powers during that round.
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Old June 29th, 2021, 10:14 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

I like the OM-moving idea (from the Soul-Guides to their Last Will Heroes). We would definitely have to split their power into two, but I think I'm fine with a three power card here as one is Stealth Flying. Space is limited, though. (I took the slight liberty of shortening Honored Soul-Guide to just Soul-Guide after the first instance in each power.)

LAST WILL
At the start of any round, before placing Order Markers, you may choose one of your previously destroyed small or medium Unique Heroes [without an Honored Soul-Guide on its Army Card]. Place or remove wounds from that Hero's card so that it has 1 Life remaining, then destroy a Soul-Guide you control and replace it with the chosen Hero. [Place the destroyed Soul-Guide on that Hero's card.] At the end of the round, destroy that Hero.

[COOL NEW POWER NAME]
Before revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, you may move that Order Marker to another Army Card of you control with an Honored Soul-Guide on it and reveal it there, instead.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. A Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If a Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.


I returned to the idea of placing the Soul-Guide on the Hero's card to simplify the wording of CNPN, which has the side effect of not needing to negate that figure's powers (each figure can only be brought back once this way, incidentally also making their revival truly their Last Will).


Here's a mockup to show size (which would probably look slightly better on a real card):


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  #336  
Old July 2nd, 2021, 11:16 PM
Blue Trails Blue Trails is offline
 
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Playtesti

I like the mock-up and the wording tweaks, @NecroBlade . Given that the HSGs are priced so low, it's probably better balance to prevent, say, Greenscales or MacDirks from resurrecting their special heroes more than once per game. However, it seems that the loss of Last Will's power-negating effect would reintroduce the concern over moving Viking Spirits that arose earlier in this thread.
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