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  #13  
Old August 15th, 2017, 07:37 AM
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Re: Strongest dragon

Su-Bak-Na is not a Dragon but his mount is, a Bone Dragon specifically.
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Old August 15th, 2017, 09:12 AM
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Re: Strongest dragon

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Su-Bak-Na is not a Dragon but his mount is, a Bone Dragon specifically.
Or a Marro organism designed to mimic a Dragon, just as Wo-Sa-Ga was genetically engineered to mimic a (decidedly oversized) Viper.


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Old August 15th, 2017, 10:47 AM
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Re: Strongest dragon

In a head to head tournament where each dragon is pitted against each dragon in 1-on-1 match-ups, I think this is the ranking:
  1. Charos
  2. Nilfheim
  3. Su-Bak-Na (counting the mount as a Dragon)
  4. Zelrig
  5. Braxas
  6. Moltenclaw
  7. Mimring (SA range only thing that makes it beat Othkurik)
  8. Othkurik
  9. Black Wyrmling
  10. White Wyrmling
  11. Blue Wyrmling
  12. Red Wyrmling
This is just mostly based on looking at the Attack and Defense*Life, as most of the special powers are moot except Charos' Counter Strike and other dragons' Special Attacks that bypass it (unless you play on a Lava or Shadow map where Moltenclaw and Othkurik can have an advantage if you taunt your opponent to your territory) and Black Wyrmling's Fledgling Acid Breath beats the other Wyrmlings. There are some lower ranked figures that might win against some higher ranked ones, but the ranking is based on partial points (i.e. lives killed + lives left) of match-ups they would both win and loose.
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Old August 15th, 2017, 10:51 AM
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Re: Strongest dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
In a head to head tournament where each dragon is pitted against each dragon in 1-on-1 match-ups, I think this is the ranking:
  1. Charos
  2. Nilfheim
  3. Su-Bak-Na (counting the mount as a Dragon)
  4. Zelrig
  5. Braxas
  6. Moltenclaw
  7. Mimring
  8. Othkurik
  9. Black Wyrmling
  10. White Wyrmling
  11. Blue Wyrmling
  12. Red Wyrmling
This is just mostly based on looking at the Attack and Defense*Life, as most of the special powers are moot except Charos' Counter Strike and other dragons' Special Attacks that bypass it (unless you play on a Lava or Shadow map where Moltenclaw and Orthkurik can have an advantage if you taunt your opponent to your territory) and Black Wyrmling's Fledgling Acid Breath beats the other Wyrmlings.
I'm generally with you, except I'm fairly sure Braxas would crush Zelrig one on one.


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  #17  
Old August 15th, 2017, 10:58 AM
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Re: Strongest dragon

@Lazy Orang I agree that Braxas would beat Zelrig, but not necessarily crush him, as Zelrig does have 33% more defense and only 20% less offense. I was thinking this before I refreshed my browser to see your comment, which is why I amended my post to add: "There are some lower ranked figures that might win against some higher ranked ones, but the ranking is based on partial points (i.e. lives killed + lives left) of match-ups they would both win and loose."
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  #18  
Old August 15th, 2017, 11:04 AM
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Re: Strongest dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
@Lazy Orang I agree that Braxas would beat Zelrig, but not necessarily crush him, as Zelrig does have 33% more defense and only 20% less offense. I was thinking this before I refreshed my browser to see your comment, which is why I amended my post to add: "There are some lower ranked figures that might win against some higher ranked ones, but the ranking is based on partial points (i.e. lives killed + lives left) of match-ups they would both win and loose."
She also has two more life than him, which mostly makes up for the lost defence. It's also worth noting that Othkurik suddenly starts looking like more of a contender the moment there's shadow or swamp water on the map - he's not the greatest, but Lurking Ambush is nothing to sniff at.


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  #19  
Old August 15th, 2017, 12:44 PM
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Re: Strongest dragon

"33% more defense and 20% less offense" is a really really bad way to think about differences in survivability. Especially when you're ignoring life points in your defense calculation. Just say one more defense die, it's more informative and doesn't imply the same use of probability that you are implying.

Su-Bak-Na should lose to both Mimring and Zelrig head to head, not sure why he is number 3. Unless the assumption is that that two dragons just start standing next to each other.

And I guess Charos does win head-to-head but IMO it's more fun to discuss (and play) Heroscape outside of a vacuum. Nilfheim is extremely well-rounded and that's why he's the most competitive dragon. Other dragons have weaknesses that make them inconsistent
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  #20  
Old August 15th, 2017, 01:09 PM
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Re: Strongest dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
"33% more defense and 20% less offense" is a really really bad way to think about differences in survivability. Especially when you're ignoring life points in your defense calculation. Just say one more defense die, it's more informative and doesn't imply the same use of probability that you are implying.

Su-Bak-Na should lose to both Mimring and Zelrig head to head, not sure why he is number 3. Unless the assumption is that that two dragons just start standing next to each other.

And I guess Charos does win head-to-head but IMO it's more fun to discuss (and play) Heroscape outside of a vacuum. Nilfheim is extremely well-rounded and that's why he's the most competitive dragon. Other dragons have weaknesses that make them inconsistent
Yeah, I honestly reckon this thread is more interesting talking about which dragon's best rather than which one would win in a duel against the others - because let's face it, when Charos has 9 Lives, 5 Attack and Defence and Counter Strike, there's no real discussion there.

~Lazy Orang, who'd be interested to throw Quahon and Brimstone from VC into the discussion.


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  #21  
Old August 15th, 2017, 01:59 PM
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Re: Strongest dragon

I understand the attack dice and defense dice are not just straight %. The matchup calculator is down, but let me try using the Dice Probability Chart to see that, for instance
  • Zelrig vs Braxas, 4 attack vs 3 defense gives 1.15 wounds (on 8 life), 5 attack vs 4 defense gives 1.334 wounds (on 6 life) so I guess Braxas would, on average, get 6 wounds on Zelrig and have 5.175 wounds on him.
  • Zelrig vs Moltenclaw, 4 attack vs 3 defense gives 1.15 wounds (on 6 life), 5 attack vs 4 defense gives 1.334 wounds (on 6 life) so I guess Moltenclaw would, on average, get 6 wounds on Zelrig and have 5.172 wounds on him
  • Su-Bak-Na vs Braxas, 7 attack vs 3 defense gives 2.052 wounds (on 8 life), 5 attack vs 3 defense gives 1.589 wounds (on 5 life), so you are right in that for 5 wounds on Su-Bak-Na, you would only get 6.457 wounds on Braxas
  • Brimstone vs Moltenclaw, 4 attack vs 3 defense gives 1.15 wounds (on 6 life), 5 attack vs 4 defense gives 1.334 wounds (on 5 life) so I guess Moltenclaw would, on average, get 5 wounds on Brimstone and have 4.31 wounds on him
  • Quahon would be just below Nilfheim (1 more defense > 1 more life), Brimstone would be below Zelrig & Moltenclaw
  • If I am bored, I may do an excel match-up calculator to calculate the average wounds from each dragon to each dragon, but I will revise my list below, as I think the others are pretty easy to gauge rankings.
Revised ranking, based on dice probability
  1. Charos
  2. Nilfheim
  3. Quahon
  4. Braxas
  5. Su-Bak-Na (counting the mount as a Dragon)
  6. Moltenclaw
  7. Zelrig
  8. Brimstone
  9. Mimring (SA range only thing that makes it beat Othkurik)
  10. Othkurik
  11. Black Wyrmling
  12. White Wyrmling
  13. Blue Wyrmling
  14. Red Wyrmling
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  #22  
Old August 15th, 2017, 02:51 PM
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Re: Strongest dragon

You are conflating discrete and continuous probability. Heroscape dice are discrete, not continuous. Average damage is not a useful calculation in head-to-head analysis
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  #23  
Old August 15th, 2017, 03:29 PM
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Re: Strongest dragon

I find these things fun so thanks for starting the conversation, but Vegie touched on a very important part of truly analyzing a 1v1 matchup of figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
"....Unless the assumption is that that two dragons just start standing next to each other.
The big range dragons, Mimring and Zelrig should get first strike in all of these matchups. And would likely get at least 2 shots off against Charos before Charos made up the ground.

Then in the 1v1 clash, they should have height in a certain % of the matchups. I would give Mimring and Zelrig +1 attack/+1 defense for encounters with melee dragons at maybe 60% of the time, but I haven't done a study of maps or anything. Those are things to keep in mind along with the terrain.

It's also a reason that I'm not convinced Charos is a slam dunk winner head to head over Nilfheim. Nilfheim will for sure get an attack of 4 first before they become engaged, and on most maps should be able to maneuver so he has height in the battle...at least height for the first attack....maybe Charos still wins that fight though, but i would calculate it as free attack of 4 against Charos then 5/5 w/counterstrike (9 life) vs. 7/5 (6 life)

EDIT: To accentuate this point, I looked at all the BOV maps (32 total) for double spaced figures (so Moltenclaw exempt from this analysis)

On 22 you could definitely get a ranged dragon on spot where it would always have height against a melee dragon
On 3 maps you could do so, but would have to be on lava
On 1 map you could force your opponent to be on lava in order to get even ground
On 4 maps you could not accomplish height superiority
On 2 maps it was not determinable because of potential fit issues with ruins or battlements.

But that's an easy estimate of 70% of the time the ranged figure will have height the entire time of the melee battle.

Last edited by kevindola; August 15th, 2017 at 03:56 PM.
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  #24  
Old August 16th, 2017, 12:48 PM
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Re: Strongest dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Su-Bak-Na is not a Dragon but his mount is, a Bone Dragon specifically.
Or a Marro organism designed to mimic a Dragon, just as Wo-Sa-Ga was genetically engineered to mimic a (decidedly oversized) Viper.
No, he is a skeletal dragon.

From the official bio:

Character Bio: This Marro Hivelordšs command of the battlefield is supreme. His mere presence on the field inspires even mindless Marro drones to become bolder and more effective. Mounted on his skeletal dragon, Su-Bak-Na can survey his surroundings in an instant and fly to wherever his daunting presence is required. There is no way to understand this Marrošs devious behavior. He may be inclined to stand back and control the field from the rear, or swoop into battle, obliterating all that stand in his way. (Hasbro)
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