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  #25  
Old July 12th, 2007, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firemaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl
Shouldn't a Batline essentially be the same as Spider-Man's Swing Line, possibly with a different range?
That's what I was thinking.
It depends on what IAmBatman thinks is appropriate. Swing Line and Batline are basically the same with the way I have Batline worded. Batman's orignial Batline power was just to help Batman move up a large hill, but it is a bit confusing. It might be possible to put keep Batline as a regular movement, but it is late for me to think of a better way to word it.

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  #26  
Old July 12th, 2007, 12:46 AM
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Oh, I wasn't trying to second guess what his intent was or even say how it should work for his custom. I meant, based on the comics, isn't it essentially the same thing? I would think it would be, except possibly with a slightly shorter range since he has a limited amount of line, whereas Spider-Man can spin more webs.
  #27  
Old July 12th, 2007, 12:51 AM
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I was thinking some more. You could have the power read like this.

Quote:
BATLINE
During his move, Batman may move up or down at least 5 spaces, but no more than 30 spaces. After using Batline, Batman continues his normal movement. Batline takes the place of one normal movement point.
OR the original way I worded it.
Quote:
BATLINE
Instead of his normal move, choose any empty space within 6 clear sight spaces of Batman. The chosen space must be at least 5 levels higher or lower than Batman, but it may not be more than 30 levels higher or lower. When Batman uses his Batline to move, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After Batman uses his Batline, he may not use his Bat-a-rang Special Attack.

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  #28  
Old July 12th, 2007, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1
BATLINE
Instead of his normal move, choose any empty space within 6 clear sight spaces of Batman. The chosen space must be at least 5 levels higher or lower than Batman, but it may not be more than 30 levels higher or lower. When Batman uses his Batline to move, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After Batman uses his Batline, he may not use his Bat-a-rang Special Attack.
The one problem with the wording here is that it never actually says to move Batman to that space.

I think this might fix that, though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1
BATLINE
Instead of moving normally, you may place Batman's figure on any empty space within 6 clear sight spaces of Batman. The chosen space must be between 5 and 30 levels higher or lower than Batman. When Batman uses his Batline to move, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. After Batman uses his Batline, he may not use his Bat-a-rang Special Attack.[/i]
I'm wary to give him disengage with this, however, since he's at his best when he's at range, using the "I Am Night" power and reeling off 2 attacks (potentially on 4 targets) at a time with his Bat-a-rangs.
I could see wording it like I have above, except without allowing him to disengage, and then changing the "I Am the Night" power to immediately end an opponent's turn - thus clearing up confusion. Whether or not the power should be allowed on specials is something that should still be debated, though, I feel.
Ugh, three special powers that have a lot of interpretation problems, I'm afraid!
Oh, and I don't want it to just be "Swing Line" for Batman - for two reasons. 1) He deserves to be his own guy and offer his own flavor separate from Spidey. 2) Swing Line takes up too much text on the card, which I need for Batman's (and his associates') other powers.

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  #29  
Old July 12th, 2007, 10:15 AM
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Ok so we agree that all three powers are slightly too ambiguous. So would the following three wordings be more specific about how the powers operate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAT-A-RANG SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 3. Choose up to 2 different figures within 5 spaces of Batman. Batman must have clear line of sight on both attacked figures. Roll 3 attack dice once for both affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice seperately. When Batman attacks with Bat-A-Rang Special Attack he may attack 1 additional time. Batman may not use Bat-A-Rang Special Attack if he is engaged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BATLINE (as a seperate movement)
Instead of moving normally, Batman may be placed on any empty space within 6 clear sight spaces. The chosen space must be between 5 and 30 levels higher or lower than Batman. After Batman uses his Batline, he may not use his Bat-a-rang Special Attack. All engagement rules apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BATLINE (as part of normal movement)
Anytime during Batman's move he may move a single space up or down between 5 and 30 levels. After using Batline, Batman may continue his normal movement. Batline is counted as 1 movement point/space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM THE NIGHT
If Batman is attacked by an opponent's figure and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided dice. If you roll a 17-20 Batman takes no wounds, the attacking figure's turn is over, and Batman may take an immeadiate turn. You may add 1 to your roll for "I am the Night" for every space between Batman and the attacking figure.
Ok I think those are much more sleare, but I could still be missing something.

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  #30  
Old July 12th, 2007, 10:54 AM
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Nope, the only thing I'm really concerned about is whether I can fit them all on the same card?
But I'd like to hear the judges chime in before I make any wholesale changes on the wording of the powers.
Hopefully we'll also get some more playtesting results soon. I hope to do more myself today, but I think it will weaken the results if I'm the only one doing it.

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  #31  
Old July 12th, 2007, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAT-A-RANG SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 5. Attack 3. Choose up to 2 different figures within 5 spaces of Batman to attack. Batman must have clear line of sight on both attacked figures. Roll 3 attack dice once for both affected figures. Affected figures roll defense dice seperately. When Batman attacks with the Bat-A-Rang Special Attack he may attack 1 additional time with the Bat-A-Rang Special Attack. Batman may not use the Bat-A-Rang Special Attack if he is engaged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BATLINE
Instead of moving normally, Batman may be placed on any empty space within 6 clear sight spaces. The chosen space must be between 5 and 30 levels higher or lower than Batman. After Batman uses his Batline, he may not use his Bat-a-rang Special Attack. All engagement rules apply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by I AM THE NIGHT
If Batman is attacked by an opponent's figure and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided dice. If you roll a 17-20 Batman takes no wounds, the attacking figure's turn is over, and Batman may take an immeadiate turn. You may add 1 to your roll for "I am the Night" for every space between Batman and the attacking figure.
I like these. Added a bit to Bat-A-Rangs in bold. I still think the Batline should give disengage since he won't be able to use his Bat-A-Rangs anyway. It is more of a defensive manuever that I think he needs theme wise to show how he contends with the heavy hitters. But I think he will play well either way.

I plan on doing some testing today. I will use whatever powers you choose, IAmBatman.
  #32  
Old July 12th, 2007, 11:43 AM
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Go ahead and playtest with the powers you have written up there (plus disengage) to see how he works.
I wouldn't mind disengage at all thematically, I'm just afraid it might make "I Am the Night" too powerful, by allowing him to exist at range for games on end.
Then again, it's not like he can fire Bat-a-rangs after disengaging, like you said, and with only 5 range, pretty much any figures can close that gap in one move anyway, so you're probably right that it wouldn't be a problem.
I'm going to have to see if these descriptions will fit on the cards together. That's my major concern!

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  #33  
Old July 12th, 2007, 05:07 PM
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I did another playtesting (same map as my earlier ones) with this tweaked card from Allskulls:



I played two 490 point armies.

Army 1 was Mimring, Krug, Arrow Gruts x3, and Major X17. I wanted to see how Batman fared against melee big shots like Krug and X17.

Army 2 was Batman, Tagawa, Kozuke, Guilty, and the Marro Warriors, but I only ended up using Batman, since my earlier tests showed him to be a good first assault unit, and I ended the playtesting after he fell.
After a round or two of positioning, it was Batman fending off shots from Mimring (one landed) and the Arrow Gruts. With the restriction that he can't use his Batline and Bat-a-rangs on the same turn, it took him a while to close in on Mimring and the Gruts and, after taking out one Arrow Grut with his first Bat-a-rang attack and blanking on his second roll, Batman ended up engaged with Krug. With limited height on the map (a few spots of height six, but nothing any higher), I didn't have a whole lot of chances to disengage with him, and once I was adjacent with Krug I was stuck there, unless I wanted to take a swipe.
Engagement with Krug is never a good place to be, especially on the same level. Batman got really lucky with a couple of really high rolls for I Am the Night against Krug. The rolls were easier to get when Krug was followed by Arrow Gruts firing, and it might've been better strategy to just forego their attacks so that Batman didn't get two shots in a row against Krug, but I was in the more wounds on Krug is better phase anyhow. Krug got 2 wounds on Batman during this engagement, but when Krug had 5 wounds on his card, Batman got lucky and rolled a 19 for I Am the Night and finished Krug off with his normal attack. Then on Batman's ensuing turn, he took out two more Arrow Gruts with his Bat-a-rang attack, and gave a wound to Mimring. Mimring finished him off. So Mimring and Krug both landed two wounds and Batman fell to the Orc horde.
Points killed by Batman: 180 (Krug, one squad of Arrow Gruts, and one wound on Mimring).
Analysis: Batman's a lot less mobile and isn't the absolute bane of ranged characters he was before the tweak. That said, his stats and powers still seem to make him worth his points, especially if he's rolling well. But, I did feel like he got pretty lucky to have survived that up close encounter with Krug and that he easily could have been taken out with only one Arrow Grut kill under his (utility) belt. So I'm a bit on the fence as to whether he's still worth 190 with these tweaks and I look forward to seeing other playtesting results for more illumination on the matter.

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  #34  
Old July 12th, 2007, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
I'm wary to give him disengage with this, however, since he's at his best when he's at range, using the "I Am Night" power and reeling off 2 attacks (potentially on 4 targets) at a time with his Bat-a-rangs.
I could see wording it like I have above, except without allowing him to disengage, and then changing the "I Am the Night" power to immediately end an opponent's turn - thus clearing up confusion. Whether or not the power should be allowed on specials is something that should still be debated, though, I feel.
Ugh, three special powers that have a lot of interpretation problems, I'm afraid!
Oh, and I don't want it to just be "Swing Line" for Batman - for two reasons. 1) He deserves to be his own guy and offer his own flavor separate from Spidey. 2) Swing Line takes up too much text on the card, which I need for Batman's (and his associates') other powers.
Tempting to put disengage on practically every hero's card, isn't it? "He's a great fighter, that won't be a problem for him!"

I think using I Am The Night to truncate an opponent's turn is the better solution as far as fun goes but by far the stronger one as far as power goes.

I agree that he needs his own flavor, but I'm not sure that the batline you have gives him the flavor he needs. The fact that he sometimes ignores the height of tiles he climbs, but never the effects of the tiles he steps on, just doesn't seem like a batline to me.
  #35  
Old July 12th, 2007, 06:03 PM
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I think Allskull's revisions (see the card in my last post) address the problems with both "I Am the Night" getting too powerful, and with Batline having its own flavor, yet still having the right flavor for Batman.

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  #36  
Old July 12th, 2007, 08:29 PM
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Hey, didn't an earlier version of your Batman have some sort of bonding with Vigilantes? What ever happened to that?
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