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  #205  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

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Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
The reason, as I see it, is that a power that works after a figure dies obviously doesn't depend on the presence of a figure with that power on the board. That's a strong suggestion that such powers should work when a figure is negated. We don't have such a strong suggestion for other powers that give a fixed duration, like Estivara's or Siege's or Scarcarver's.
Well, my perspective was that we didn't have any suggestion that the other powers didn't last after the figure died.
You might note that I allowed for that in the way I phrased things.

I was just making what I saw as a conservative interpretation of what powers would persist. I granted that there was wiggle room for other interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
It just so happens that, if the figure is removed from the game, those other powers don't have anything left to apply to.
Not at all. If you want to know how that Lycanthopy marker affects a figure, you look at the WL card, even if the WL is dead. The power is clearly still being applied when the figure is dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rˇchean View Post
Is there something I missed?
The only one I'm still not 100% clear on is Ice Cold. That is, does the water turn to ice at the point the GIE steps onto it, in which case negating the power leaves the ice, or is it more like a power that the GIE is continuously using as long as he's standing on the water, in which case the negation immediately causes the ice to turn back to water?
My read is that the duration there is "While a Greater Ice Elemental is on a water or ice space". So, Ice Cold lasts as long as the GIE stays in the same spot that it was when it was negated. This does produce one odd issue, though: If it moves off of one of the spaces but not the other, then Ice Cold still applies to the space that the trailing side of the GIE is on.
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  #206  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 01:08 PM
Ivellius Ivellius is offline
 
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

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Originally Posted by nate the dawg View Post
The more interesting question to me, assuming your interpretation is correct, is whether or not the water tiles stop being ice if the GIE is negated while upon them!

Not really, I still don't see Ice Cold surviving beyond the point of negation.
I don't see it in the cards, either, but that's the ruling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
My read is that the duration there is "While a Greater Ice Elemental is on a water or ice space". So, Ice Cold lasts as long as the GIE stays in the same spot that it was when it was negated. This does produce one odd issue, though: If it moves off of one of the spaces but not the other, then Ice Cold still applies to the space that the trailing side of the GIE is on.
Curious. I'm not sure it would ever affect anything, but it's interesting to note.
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  #207  
Old August 22nd, 2011, 01:12 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

I know they use the gie as a bridge of sorts, when he makes the water ice, it stays that way as long as he is there and other units can move across the water as if it were ice. This is over in his book and his thread discussions. Therefore it is there till he moves, now if he only moves one foot but not the other after being negated, I would guess that any movement would make his power dissapate, only because it is established that the negation would take effect on anyone if for no other reason than on their next turn. So for gie to move it would be a new turn and the negation would begin at that moment, so he moves and he is moving off of water at that point not off of ice, because it is a new turn.

Thats my best guess, has anyone pinged Rˇchean with this question? He is by far the best person who responds the fastest from the offical rules team.
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  #208  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 04:15 AM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

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Originally Posted by cavebehr View Post
Hey Xotli, I am giving my best guess based on what we know as to play the negation markers. If the GIE is on the water space it is now ice, his card says as soon as he steps on the water space, then if he is negated while on the water space, it would still be ice untill he takes another step, as soon as he moves since his power was negated his next step would only come up with water.
That's what I think too, but ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xraine69 View Post
Because GIE's card states, "while" on a water space, I would say when he is negated, the spaces revert back to their normal state.
... I can see that perspective as well. That's why I asked for further clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
And how does negating the power not negate the cloud? The cloud apparently exists independently of the power somehow. It seems like a quite arbitrary and artificial semantic distinction. That's why I want to know the logic behind the ruling.
I don't find that to be artificial whatsoever. You have the power to pick a book up off the floor and put it on the table. If you do that, and then I somehow magically take away your power to pick up books off the floor, the book currently on the table doesn't somehow fall to the floor all by itself. It's not complicated, or artificial, or any more semantic than all communication inherently is.

You are aware that words are only symbols, right? As the saying goes, the map is not the territory. A word is invested with semiotic meaning by common convention, but the truth is that every person has their own mental map which is unique from every other person. Happily, our mental maps (usually) don't diverge to any great degree (else communication would be nigh impossible), but there are always going to be minor differences in interpretation between individuals. That's why I say it's always dangerous to talk about things like this as being "obvious." One man's obvious is another man's oblique, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
It just so happens that, if the figure is removed from the game, those other powers don't have anything left to apply to.
Not at all. If you want to know how that Lycanthopy marker affects a figure, you look at the WL card, even if the WL is dead. The power is clearly still being applied when the figure is dead.
My point was that, if you wanted to know whether Estivara was still targetable after she was dead, the card would tell you that too. It's just not a question that ever needs answering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
This does produce one odd issue, though: If it moves off of one of the spaces but not the other, then Ice Cold still applies to the space that the trailing side of the GIE is on.
I suppose that technically might be true, but a) I'm not sure that being that technical is useful, and b) I don't think it would have any in-game impact even if it were true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

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  #209  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 09:06 AM
Ivellius Ivellius is offline
 
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xraine69 View Post
Because GIE's card states, "while" on a water space, I would say when he is negated, the spaces revert back to their normal state.
... I can see that perspective as well. That's why I asked for further clarification.
But this was already answered. It stays ice if everything else persists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
And how does negating the power not negate the cloud? The cloud apparently exists independently of the power somehow. It seems like a quite arbitrary and artificial semantic distinction. That's why I want to know the logic behind the ruling.
I don't find that to be artificial whatsoever. You have the power to pick a book up off the floor and put it on the table. If you do that, and then I somehow magically take away your power to pick up books off the floor, the book currently on the table doesn't somehow fall to the floor all by itself. It's not complicated, or artificial, or any more semantic than all communication inherently is.
That's not a good comparison, though. The table's still holding up the book; there's nothing to suggest that Estivara's Cloud of Darkness is similarly sustainable outside of her having that power.A better one would be if I had the power to hover books in the air between us and block myself from sight. If you take away that power and I have books hovering in the air, are they going to stay there?

Some Heroscape powers have "charges" (limited uses), while others are more of a binary type (they're either on or off). The former aren't and have never been regarded as affected by negation and usually affect other cards/figures to boot. The latter seem like they should be affected by negation, because negation by definition would nullify them--that is, turn them off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
You are aware that words are only symbols, right? As the saying goes, the map is not the territory. A word is invested with semiotic meaning by common convention, but the truth is that every person has their own mental map which is unique from every other person. Happily, our mental maps (usually) don't diverge to any great degree (else communication would be nigh impossible), but there are always going to be minor differences in interpretation between individuals. That's why I say it's always dangerous to talk about things like this as being "obvious." One man's obvious is another man's oblique, so to speak.
You don't actually have a definition for "negate," do you? I notice you keep refusing to give one. I'm quite aware of all of that (I was an English major), but the funny thing is that, as you noted, our mental maps don't really diverge and words do gain meaning by common convention. Also, we have dictionaries and stuff to reinforce our meanings and give us common ground. If you'll provide a definition for your words, then we can have a meaningful conversation about why you think negate means something different.

Last edited by Ivellius; August 23rd, 2011 at 10:10 AM.
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  #210  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
This does produce one odd issue, though: If it moves off of one of the spaces but not the other, then Ice Cold still applies to the space that the trailing side of the GIE is on.
I suppose that technically might be true, but a) I'm not sure that being that technical is useful, and b) I don't think it would have any in-game impact even if it were true.
It has some impact in a couple plausible situations I can think of.

One is if the negated GIE is standing in water on the near side of a 2-space-wide river. If the GIE starts to move across the river, it can cross the whole thing only if its trailing hex still remains affected by Ice Cold. It has to end its movement after moving one space if both spaces it is standing on instantly become normal water.

Another case is when a GIE standing on normal or swamp water is one space away from attacking a figure (or blocking for an ally, or picking up a treasure, or any other situation where something attractive is just one space away) and only moves one space. In that case, if the trailing space remains affected by Ice Cold, then the GIE still gets to activate Cold Healing at the end of the turn (and any subsequent turns, until it moves off of that space).

Last edited by dok; August 23rd, 2011 at 11:28 AM. Reason: by "plausible", I mean "plausible given that we're granting that Morsbane negated a GIE", which is already a lot to grant.
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  #211  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 12:47 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rˇchean View Post
However, any power that has "for the entire game", or "the rest of the game", or "until the end of the round", or "next marker" or whatever - if the requirements were met to trigger that power, negation will not undo that occurrence of it's use. It will stop any further activation of it, but if they got it in prior to the negation, that activation of the power will stay intact until the condition(s) that end it are met.
Okay, maybe "duration" wasn't the best word simply because Rˇ didn't use it, but the GIE would fall into the "whatever"--its requirements to freeze the water are met and triggered, so it will stay intact until the condition (i.e., the GIE being moved) that ends it is met.
Ice Cold is a perpetual ability that is always on, like Raelin's aura. The difference between Cloud of Darkness and Ice Cold is that, Ice Cold is not triggered. It is not rolled for, it does not require a marker, it does not have any game mechanics that turns it off or on; it is always on. And as such, as soon as the power is negated, its effects are gone.

The other powers are triggered as part of the power; those powers once triggered remain until the end conditions are met. Estivara’s Cloud of Darkness is not perpetual; it is not always on. You have to take a turn, roll the number and stay on the space. It also has a point in time when the power is no longer active.

The GIE's Ice Cold power is always on, even if GIE was not standing on ice or water, Ice Cold is still "on"; the GIE just isn’t standing in a place where the effects are realized. (Raelin’s aura does not cease to exist just because there are no figures you control within her Aura. The Aura is still there, just the game situation does not yield its effects) Because Ice Cold is a perpetual and continual condition, the condition is checked at all times. It is not triggered when he moves onto water or ice; NO, it’s effects are just realized when he moves unto the proper terrain. Because there is no end and no begin to what triggers the power, as soon as the power is negated the effects of it cease.

There is more I want to get into here, some of which is probably more than I should say.
1) The rules team pretty much doesn’t exist anymore. Our resources have been stripped from us. We no longer have access to the information and discussions that took place in the distant or recent past; nor do we have access to the checklists that were used with each power/unit or the resulting conversations. All of the others guys have moved on and they do not feel lead to concern themselves with the extraneous situations that come up. Sorry, I am the only one fool enough to try to indulge you guys.

2) Rod of Negation was an entry on the Check List for every power and unit that was made. This isn’t a "ruling"; it is how it worked. We were told to look at in terms of if the power had triggers or if it was perpetual. In the case of powers that triggered and had a specified duration, Negation stops any further occurrence. For perpetual, always on powers, we were told to consider them immediately disabled.

3) You have the information; it is your choice to play it however you feel is right for you and your play group. If you are attending an event, consult you EO. There is no official answer for anything anymore. The FAQ will not ever be revised in an “official” capacity. Take what I say with a grain of salt and just understand that I am giving you the information (at my risk) as it pertains to how we worked to test and check units and powers. If you do not agree with what we did nor our interpretations, that is entirely your prerogative. There is no longer any official word to be had on any of this.

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Last edited by Rˇchean; October 2nd, 2011 at 10:55 PM. Reason: affects to effects
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  #212  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 01:05 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Thanks for all of that, . It's impressive to know just how far ahead of the curve you guys (or just you, now ) are on this sort of question. That answer is more than official enough for me and makes perfect intuitive sense.
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  #213  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 01:29 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Thank you very much Rˇchean, it is very simple for me to see you all did great work in the past and you yourself have been invalueable to this site and to the game mechanics. Thank you for taking time to still put effort into this site, and into this game.
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  #214  
Old August 23rd, 2011, 11:29 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Thanks for your efforts and patience Rˇchean. Your rulings will always be treated as official by me, at least, and anyone who does otherwise is being foolish.
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  #215  
Old August 24th, 2011, 03:19 AM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
You don't actually have a definition for "negate," do you? I notice you keep refusing to give one.
I gave you one several pages back. In bold, even. You didn't pay any attention to it the first time I said it; why should I repeat myself?

I did try to indulge your craving for attention for a bit, but I think we're done now. Let's not take up any more room in the Book of thread. If you wish to persist in admin-baiting, take it to PM and we'll see how far you get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rˇchean View Post
Ice Cold is a perpetual ability that is always on, like Raelin's aura. The difference between Cloud of Darkness and Ice Cold is that, Ice Cold is not triggered. It is not rolled for, it does not require a marker, it does not have any game mechanics that turns it off or on; it is always on. And as such, as soon as the power is negated, its affects are gone.

The other powers are triggered as part of the power; those powers once triggered remain until the end conditions are met. Estivaraís Cloud of Darkness is not perpetual; it is not always on. You have to take a turn, roll the number and stay on the space. It also has a point in time when the power is no longer active.

The GIE's Ice Cold power is always on, even if GIE was not standing on ice or water, Ice Cold is still "on"; the GIE just isnít standing in a place where the affects are realized. (Raelinís aura does not cease to exist just because there are no figures you control within her Aura. The Aura is still there, just the game situation does not yield its affects) Because Ice Cold is a perpetual and continual condition, the condition is checked at all times. It is not triggered when he moves onto water or ice; NO, itís affects are just realized when he moves unto the proper terrain. Because there is no end and no begin to what triggers the power, as soon as the power is negated the affects of it cease.
Excellent. Thanks so much Ry.

I propose the following R&C:

Quote:
- ROD OF NEGATION : Effect on powers with duration
If I use the Rod of Negation to negate a power, does it stop immediately?
It depends. When power that has a set duration (e.g. "for this game," "until the next time you reveal an order marker") or uses markers (e.g. Lycanthropy, Rod of Negation itself) is used, that use lasts as long as the stated duration or as long as the marker remains. If such a power is negated, it cannot be used again, but any previous uses remain in effect. Powers without durations or markers are continuously being used (e.g. Defensive Aura, Ice Cold); when a power such as this is negated, it stops immediately. (Rules Team)
Does that capture it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
You should not read this blog.

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  #216  
Old August 24th, 2011, 03:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Morsbane

This was a very interesting discussion to follow! As others have said, thanks Rˇchean for the clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
I propose the following R&C:

Quote:
- ROD OF NEGATION : Effect on powers with duration
If I use the Rod of Negation to negate a power, does it stop immediately?
It depends. When power that has a set duration (e.g. "for this game," "until the next time you reveal an order marker") or uses markers (e.g. Lycanthropy, Rod of Negation itself) is used, that use lasts as long as the stated duration or as long as the marker remains. If such a power is negated, it cannot be used again, but any previous uses remain in effect. Powers without durations or markers are continuously being used (e.g. Defensive Aura, Ice Cold); when a power such as this is negated, it stops immediately. (Rules Team)
Does that capture it?
That certainly covers the bases in reference to what's already been discussed. Of course, who knows what wacky scenarios will come to light in the future; 200+ army cards is a lot of interaction in terms of special powers!

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