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  #4525  
Old April 12th, 2021, 11:04 AM
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Skinderella Skinderella is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



Iíve decided to go a different route with Valtia. Having reflected on her previous design and comparing it to other Kyries after the great feedback I got here, it started to feel a bit bloated. And as the first Kyrie for Aquilla, limiting the design to very specific armies wasnít quite as fun. It was also evident that it wasn't quite what people were looking for for an Aquilla Kyrie, or at least as the first one. On top of this, it was a design that could fit other figures and designs and probably best suited as such (perhaps an ant queen figure would be better). So Iíve gone a new direction for her and simplified the design.

This time Iíve gone for a limited flight aura inspired by pixies, fairies, and the like. With the limit to 3 movement itís not often a better option for faster units, but gets stronger on slower units, especially the Granite Guardians. Most of the time she is very map dependant, but in the right builds she can be a lot of fun to help out those slower units. The size limit is to stop the likes of Major Q9 and Incindeborgs from utilising it, though can be removed if itís not deemed an issue. The current wording on Dust of Flight would prevent this limited flight from interacting with special attacks and special powers that allow movement, so from the top of my head there arenít any weird or game breaking interactions.
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  #4526  
Old April 12th, 2021, 11:45 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That's an interesting idea, but really situational, to the point of only being drafted in specific scenarios. At first it seems like it can be used for combat positioning, the 3-space restrictions mean things have to be set up very specifically to do so, too much to take time to do so. Even for uses like crossing a single-hex river it's probably not worth it, as the limited flying wouldn't be any faster than just moving across it normally. It would be useful to scale a castle wall (really, really useful), or jump a lava pit, but that's about it.
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  #4527  
Old April 12th, 2021, 03:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
That's an interesting idea, but really situational, to the point of only being drafted in specific scenarios. At first it seems like it can be used for combat positioning, the 3-space restrictions mean things have to be set up very specifically to do so, too much to take time to do so. Even for uses like crossing a single-hex river it's probably not worth it, as the limited flying wouldn't be any faster than just moving across it normally. It would be useful to scale a castle wall (really, really useful), or jump a lava pit, but that's about it.
Thank you for the feedback! Would a range increase or move increase be a better way to go in theoryscaping? I'm not necessarily looking for a top tier unit, plenty of the Kyrie heroes have niche uses, just a fun unit that opens up more options. I don't want to go too high in the movement department as in theory you'll then only want to use the flight, as well as potentially nullifying the likes of Theracus and Brunak.
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  #4528  
Old April 12th, 2021, 04:28 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'd suggest going for a 4 by 4 to see how it plays, 4 range and 4 spaces. I dont think you'll ever truly replace the carry figures because they serve a different purpose (brunak for beatdown and theracus for putting syvarrius on height). Its a cool concept and will probably be more useful for squads, whether it be ants or... making the knights of Weston fly! Lol

I think there could be some fun ways to play with that.
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  #4529  
Old April 12th, 2021, 04:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
That's an interesting idea, but really situational, to the point of only being drafted in specific scenarios. At first it seems like it can be used for combat positioning, the 3-space restrictions mean things have to be set up very specifically to do so, too much to take time to do so. Even for uses like crossing a single-hex river it's probably not worth it, as the limited flying wouldn't be any faster than just moving across it normally. It would be useful to scale a castle wall (really, really useful), or jump a lava pit, but that's about it.
Thank you for the feedback! Would a range increase or move increase be a better way to go in theoryscaping? I'm not necessarily looking for a top tier unit, plenty of the Kyrie heroes have niche uses, just a fun unit that opens up more options. I don't want to go too high in the movement department as in theory you'll then only want to use the flight, as well as potentially nullifying the likes of Theracus and Brunak.
Number one suggestion: drop the 3-space restriction on how far the units can move. Anything with speed is going to rush outside the aura in one movement anyway, so it's just a one-time movement boost.
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  #4530  
Old April 12th, 2021, 04:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
That's an interesting idea, but really situational, to the point of only being drafted in specific scenarios. At first it seems like it can be used for combat positioning, the 3-space restrictions mean things have to be set up very specifically to do so, too much to take time to do so. Even for uses like crossing a single-hex river it's probably not worth it, as the limited flying wouldn't be any faster than just moving across it normally. It would be useful to scale a castle wall (really, really useful), or jump a lava pit, but that's about it.
Thank you for the feedback! Would a range increase or move increase be a better way to go in theoryscaping? I'm not necessarily looking for a top tier unit, plenty of the Kyrie heroes have niche uses, just a fun unit that opens up more options. I don't want to go too high in the movement department as in theory you'll then only want to use the flight, as well as potentially nullifying the likes of Theracus and Brunak.
Number one suggestion: drop the 3-space restriction on how far the units can move. Anything with speed is going to rush outside the aura in one movement anyway, so it's just a one-time movement boost.
now that, that would make it a really interesting design... could make for some really fun and interesting games basically using her as a "springboard" as it were.
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  #4531  
Old April 12th, 2021, 05:51 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

At first I was thinking about 9-Move Spiders and Vipers slingshotting across the map and chuckling to myself but then I thought about Agents with Flying and now I'm terrified.

~TAF

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in THE ENEMY'S LAST RETREAT

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  #4532  
Old April 12th, 2021, 06:14 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I love the idea of removing the move limit, it'd create a lot more opportunities. But yeah Krav Maga are something I fear might break it. It's why I put a size limit on it in the first place, a flying Q9 is the stuff of nightmares. I'm more than happy to test it regardless though.
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  #4533  
Old April 12th, 2021, 06:40 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinderella View Post
I love the idea of removing the move limit, it'd create a lot more opportunities. But yeah Krav Maga are something I fear might break it. It's why I put a size limit on it in the first place, a flying Q9 is the stuff of nightmares. I'm more than happy to test it regardless though.
Limit it to figures that follow Aquilla.
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  #4534  
Old April 12th, 2021, 07:10 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Flying dwarves are gunna be lit
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  #4535  
Old April 12th, 2021, 11:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Limiting the bonus to Aquilla would still leave plenty of room for 7-move flying Mohicans, flying B-11 troops, or other ranged options. I'm not a huge fan of limiting an entire generals' design space for high-speed ranged figures in that way--I think that it's best to balance with those sorts of cases potentially in mind anyway. Limiting it to Aquilla alone wouldn't make removing a speed cap work in my eyes.

Furthermore, 3-4 spaces of Flying movement passively added on any type of figure already seems very strong to me. Scaling castle walls like that is huge, and a 3-space aura is generous enough for the power to find a lot of utility (especially since it even works with squads!). I'm actually concerned about it already being too powerful in casual games as a way of outright bypassing a lot of scenarios. Certainly this sort of figure would have to be balanced on the lower end of the power spectrum for competitive play to avoid trivializing a lot of scenarios. I think that the design space is viable and can probably work, but the degree to which Valtia can let any army bypass lava, mountains, or any other obstacle seems crazy for just 80 points.

Obviously figures "breaking" certain scenarios have been done several times before (units like Tul-Bak-Ra can just teleport into castles and even bring in reinforcements with some luck), but these figures are often more limited in scope and do not apply these bonuses to your entire force. I don't see an easy way to balance between the tournament format and a universal flight utility like this in a way that would make both completely satisfying.

That all said, I do like the idea of another unique support Kyrie like this. Offering flight to other figures is something that hasn't been explored much before (largely for good reason, of course), which makes the prospect interesting. I do find it to be much more compelling and evocative of a classic Kyrie than the Insect Cheerleader version of Valtia. If she doesn't overwhelm scenarios, then I think that the design seems pretty exciting; and if she does, then I think that there are a few different types of restrictions that you could add to bring her more in-line with other options like Saylind or Theracus that offer a similar utility.
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  #4536  
Old April 13th, 2021, 01:06 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Giving Flying to an army, limited or not, is going to break scenarios. No matter how bad it is or how hard it is to set up, in certain places it will always be broken-good. That's already true with Flying ranged units, of course, and this would open up much more.

On the other hand, if she ever wants to see play outside of those scenarios, she has to be good enough to have general use. The tight range makes her really, really map-dependent: she needs to have a place where the initial slower development and positioning ultimately speeds things up. The more the figures are allowed to fly, the more useful she is. But yeah, flying ranged units is dangerous business, and escalates very quickly.

Really, this sort of thing is probably too radical to work its way into official 'Scape. She'd probably have to be so weak as to only be useful in certain scenarios--the ones she breaks.
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