Justice League Design Thread (Heroes)

[Yodaking]

I was looking at the Marker Burn concept in the FP and it is an earlier version than where we ended the discussion at. We had dropped the bullet points concept and replaced it with just one marker burn power and one always on marker power.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I was looking at the Marker Burn concept in the FP and it is an earlier version than where we ended the discussion at. We had dropped the bullet points concept and replaced it with just one marker burn power and one always on marker power.

If you can find and quote a more recent version over there, I'm happy to update the OP. I was just going with the most recent/representative version I could find of each.

I think the debate going forward is basically narrowing to the Original Markers version that you all had and tried to get passed in the first place, and the Marker Burn version that's basically a class-specific version with some temporary marker usage and some static marker usage.

It seems like the biggest disagreement is going to be between the "keep it completely open-ended" folks who want more of an Avengers Mirror and the "use some class restrictions" folks who want to encourage you to play more thematic armies (thus more of a Fantastic Four Mirror in a way).

[Arkham]

Alright, now that 3 days have passed since we've had a vote, here's the voting results.

Original Marker
26
Class Change
12
Team Powers
22
Marker Burn
27
Classic Markers + Class
22

Just for reminder sake: Heroes received a +2 for each vote, former Heroes and Sidekicks received a +1 for each vote, and everyone else received the normal weighted amount.

The results show that Marker Burn was the favorite, but only slightly over the Original Markers, with Classic Markers and Team Powers coming in a not too distant third.

Some analysis on those:

The Marker Burn incorporates elements taken from the Original Markers, and the Team Powers version. The Classic Marker + Classes is essentially the Original Marker system we came up with, but with more markers given out, and Class restriction added.

So all in all, these are similar in concept, and I think there's room for compromise here folks.

With that said, we'll pick up the conversation back in the discussion thread. Thanks for weighing in.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, your voting tallies ended up being slightly different than mine, but I'll blame it on all the syllabus work I've been doing to get ready for my fall classes and trust yours.

[Arkham]

@TrollBrute @johnny139 @Viegon @Karat @SirGalahad

Heroes, we need your vote here. We need a pass or veto on this proposed finalized direction. It is the Marker Burn direction, with elements from the Original Markers, and Classic Markers, fused into the design. Notable changes:

-1 power that requires removing a marker in order to use.

-At least 1 power on each card that requires a marker on their card in order to use, that isn't removed, thus is static.

-Cyborg will now be able to place 1 marker on any Unique Hero, with no class restriction, thus allowing open synergy.

-The open synergy will be balanced in that they will only receive 1 marker, and can't have more stacked on them, so that person will gain all static bonuses, and only be able to burn their marker once per game, keeping more powerful figures in check, and providing encouragement to still draft within the classes on Martian Manhunter's and Batman's cards.

-Number of markers given out by Martian Manhunter and Batman will be balanced out in design.

-Number of classes listed on Martian Manhunter's and Batman's cards can be put down to 4 each, instead of 5, if that is more favorable. No issue there.

We think this is the best compromise of various directions discussed. We have done our best to flesh out each option, and after the Hero and Public vote, we now feel we have the best middle ground that offers a dynamic balance between classic/new, and closed/open synergy. Please review the proposed designs, and give us a Pass or Veto, so we know if we have your support, and if we can wrap these up and get them finalized for future nomination/design. Thank you for your time.

Martian Manhunter II:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = MARTIAN MANHUNTER II
SECRET IDENTITY = J'ONN J'ONZZ

SPECIES = MARTIAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CHAMPION
PERSONALITY = BENEVOLENT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 7

MOVE = 8
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 370

JUSTICE LEAGUE TELEPATHY
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Archer, Vigilante, Magician, Officer, or King Heroes you control. Once per turn, after a figure you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to add 3 to that roll. If their class is not listed in this power, add only 1 to the roll instead. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

TELEPATHIC MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any figure you control within 5 spaces of Martian Manhunter with a Justice League marker on it's card. All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

Batman III:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = BATMAN III
SECRET IDENTITY = BRUCE WAYNE

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = VIGILANTE
PERSONALITY = DRIVEN

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 250

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICAL ANALYSIS
At the start of the game, place up to 5 total Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Champion, Warrior, Scientist, Officer, or Protector Heroes you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls attack dice, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card, and the defending figure must subtract 2 from its defense. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card you control, to the card of a figure you control with a Class listed in this power.

FIELD ORDERS
When a figure you control with a Justice League marker on its card is destroyed, you may immediately remove any unrevealed Order Markers and Justice League markers from that figure's card, and place them on any cards with a Justice League marker that you control.

MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST
When attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled, and all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Cyborg II:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = CYBORG II
SECRET IDENTITY = VIC STONE

SPECIES = CYBORG
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = BRILLIANT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 255

JUSTICE LEAGUE COMBAT COOPERATION
At the start of the game, choose one other Unique Hero you control and place a Justice League marker on its card. Once per turn, after a figure you control takes a turn, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to take a turn with Cyborg, you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the round, if Cyborg is in your start zone, you may choose to place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space in your start zone. At the end of the round, you may move up to 3 figures in your start zone with a Justice League marker on their card up to 3 spaces each, then remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC ENGINEERING
At the end of a round, Cyborg and all Android or Cyborg Unique Heroes you control with a Justice League marker on their card may remove 1 Wound Marker from that figure's card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

[johnny139]

I'd definitely like to see the number of classes trimmed; I think personally I'd go down to 3 but I think that's up for debate. And I'm not sold on the open synergy bit or on Cyborg being the one to do it.

But as for general direction? I'll give it a tentative Yea. I think it does a good job of deviating from the standards of the Avengers, still feeling consistent with our mechanics, and providing a chance for big, flashy "Wow!" powers. It needs hammering out but I'm interested in the basic mechanics for sure.

[Karat]

I definitely think that the listed classes should be trimmed. Also, the extra restriction referencing the listed classes in JL Telepathy makes it overly complex IMO, id cut that part out. You also don't need to list it as "up to 5 total," "up to 5" is sufficient.

Overall though, I can definitely live with this direction once it is ironed out.

[Yodaking]

Karat, if you take a look at the last 2 or 3 pages of the discussion thread you will see why it was added.

[TrollBrute]

Definitely needs a little more tweaking, but I wouldn't vote against this general direction.

[Viegon]

It's not my favorite of the versions tossed around, but it's not a bad direction either, so I'll give it a reluctant Yea. And I would also like to see the number of classes listed brought down to 4.

[IAmBatman]

@Viegon @Karat @TrollBrute @johnny139 @SirGalahad

Heroes, please review the below write ups and let us know if you'd block (i.e. formally vote No to) any of them from being eligible for public design nominations or other LDs.

Please consider carefully before responding. The below write ups represent hard fought compromise that has come to a point where it is trying very hard to represent the desires and views of the majority of active posters in the Justice League design threads. I'm not asking whether you like it, whether it's your favorite approach, or even whether you're excited about this direction but, simply, would you block it from happening?

Thank you for your time and consideration. (If it turns out at least three of you would block these, I'll be back with a less-compromised proposal for you next, but that's not my preference, out of deference for the wishes of other posters).

Martian Manhunter II:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = MARTIAN MANHUNTER II
SECRET IDENTITY = J'ONN J'ONZZ

SPECIES = MARTIAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CHAMPION
PERSONALITY = BENEVOLENT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 7

MOVE = 8
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 370

JUSTICE LEAGUE 4
At the start of the game, place up to 4 Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Heroes you control. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card in your Army to the card of a figure you control.

JUSTICE LEAGUE MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any figure you control within 5 spaces of Martian Manhunter with a Justice League marker on its card. All figures you control with a Justice League marker on its card are considered within clear sight of each other. Once per turn, after an Archer, King, Magician, Officer, or Scientist you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card to add 3 to that roll.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

Batman III:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = BATMAN III
SECRET IDENTITY = BRUCE WAYNE

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = VIGILANTE
PERSONALITY = DRIVEN

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 250

JUSTICE LEAGUE 4
At the start of the game, place up to 4 Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Heroes you control. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card in your Army to the card of a figure you control.

LEAGUE TACTICS
When a figure you control with a Justice League marker on its card is destroyed, you may immediately remove any unrevealed Order Markers and Justice League markers from that figure's card, and place them on any cards with a Justice League marker that you control. Once per turn, before a Champion, Officer, Scientist, Vigilante, or Warrior you control rolls attack dice, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from that figure's card, and the defending figure must subtract 2 from its defense.

MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST
When attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled, and all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Cyborg II:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = CYBORG II
SECRET IDENTITY = VIC STONE

SPECIES = CYBORG
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SCIENTIST
PERSONALITY = BRILLIANT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 230

JUSTICE LEAGUE 4
At the start of the game, place up to 4 Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Heroes you control. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card in your Army to the card of a figure you control.

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the round, if Cyborg is in your start zone, you may choose to place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space in your start zone. At the end of the round, you may move up to 3 figures in your start zone with a Justice League marker on their card up to 3 spaces each, then remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC ENGINEERING
At the end of a round, Cyborg and all Android or Cyborg Unique Heroes you control with a Justice League marker on their card may remove 1 Wound Marker from that figure's card. Once per round, after using Cybernetic Engineering, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card or from the card of an Android Protector you control to remove 1 additional Wound Marker from its card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

Superman III

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = SUPERMAN III
SECRET IDENTITY = KAL-EL

SPECIES = KRYPTONIAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = CHAMPION
PERSONALITY = VALIANT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 8

MOVE = 10
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 8
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 400

JUSTICE LEAGUE 4
At the start of the game, place up to 4 Justice League markers on the cards of Unique Heroes you control. At the end of the round, you may move any Justice League markers from a card in your Army to the card of a figure you control.

SYMBOL OF JUSTICE
Add 1 to your initiative roll for each Justice League marker on army cards you control, to a maximum of +7. Once per turn, before a figure you control with a Justice League marker rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may choose a Champion, Magician, Officer, Scientist, or Vigilante figure you control that is adjacent to the defending figure, remove 1 Justice League marker from the chosen figure’s card, and roll defense and take any resulting wounds from that attack with the chosen figure.

MAN OF STEEL
When rolling defense against a normal attack from a figure that is not a Kryptonian, all blanks rolled count as extra shields.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

[johnny139]

I would Yea Batman and Cyborg, Nay Manhunter and Superman. Batman has 5 classes in his power but the advantage of encompassing the most iconic Justice League members with them; it's simply too much and too scattershot with the other two.

I'm glad we're finally settling on designs that are no one's favorites and that no one is excited about, by the way. (As a disclaimer, this statement is not meant to disparage anyone's herculean efforts to corral all of these ideas - I just found your introduction to be amusingly phrased.)