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  #4417  
Old January 8th, 2021, 04:36 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Yeah, I like that better. It feels harsh to give up a third of your movement to move some Warforged a bit, but maybe it's worth it for early game board control.
Is it possible that I could get away with moving more... like Urk does with Goblins or am I pushing the envelope there?
This has gone beyond the scope of this thread (to much core design workshopping), but I do giving extra movements to Insects in general. Helps them swarm. Respawing them isn't bad either, though unlikely to do much to help keep up with how fast most of them die off.
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  #4418  
Old January 9th, 2021, 06:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Ok! After doing some tinkering, thinking and mini examination I'm back to try with that Karrnathi skeleton sculpt again. Hopefully with some more convincing or plausible abilities.



The thing I am unsure about on this take is if I should just ditch skeletal form altogether and leave him at 3 defense which should explain his armor. If I did that he is a slightly higher ranked skeleton, still a warden that imparts some support to all guards like Warden 816 does. I gave him a unique ability based on the entry for Karrnathi Skeletons in dnd, they are noted to have tactics as they were once elite soldiers: "Unlike mindless skeletons, Karrnathi skeletons fight intelligently, using tactics such as flanking, aiding another, and fighting defensively. They fight fearlessly until destroyed."

This should explain the defensive tactics that I have going on for guards, the cool looking swords that he have come with a a way to amp up your attack and profit off attacks that you don't favor so that they benefit you later. The language here might not be specific, let me know if/how I can work on it or specify timing better.
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  #4419  
Old January 10th, 2021, 12:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

To be clear, Crimson Blades is only intended to work with and on Akhenaten's own attacks, right?

I think that Crimson Blades would read a lot cleaner if instead of "saving dice," you could place a Crimson Blade Marker or something on his card when you roll an excess skull (or attack and roll at least one skull without inflicting a wound). You lose out on some of the flexibility of choosing which dice to save (either unnecessary damage or too few skulls to be worthwhile), but it feels more in line with something from an official design.

I don't think that Evasive Tactics should be a blanket "always on" power. Giving all Guards in the game disengage for 90 points feels dangerous, especially when it's already a class with synergies and good units like the Honor Guard or Blastatrons. Akhenaten probably wouldn't break them, but it'd need to be tested very carefully. Some kind of a range or sight limit feels more prudent to me.

More thematically, I'm not sure that disengage is the best pairing for the "Guard" class. This is a relatively minor quibble, but I feel like some kind of a durability increase would be more thematic for Guards, albeit it'd probably be just as problematic depending on the implementation and I don't have any concrete alternative to suggest. A straight defense dice bonus would be interesting for some units like Gurei-Oni, but also potentially frustrating when paired with stuff like the Crypt Guardians. It's a bit hard to balance.

Is Akhenaten intended to be the actual D&D Karnathi Skeleton monster? The name's Egyptian roots makes me think of Feylund first, but I'm not familiar with D&D lore. The further he gets from the Tomb Skeletons, the more that Skeletal Form stands out to me, but like I said earlier in this thread, I think that the power isn't good in the first place.
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  #4420  
Old January 10th, 2021, 03:49 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
To be clear, Crimson Blades is only intended to work with and on Akhenaten's own attacks, right?

I think that Crimson Blades would read a lot cleaner if instead of "saving dice," you could place a Crimson Blade Marker or something on his card when you roll an excess skull (or attack and roll at least one skull without inflicting a wound). You lose out on some of the flexibility of choosing which dice to save (either unnecessary damage or too few skulls to be worthwhile), but it feels more in line with something from an official design.

I don't think that Evasive Tactics should be a blanket "always on" power. Giving all Guards in the game disengage for 90 points feels dangerous, especially when it's already a class with synergies and good units like the Honor Guard or Blastatrons. Akhenaten probably wouldn't break them, but it'd need to be tested very carefully. Some kind of a range or sight limit feels more prudent to me.

More thematically, I'm not sure that disengage is the best pairing for the "Guard" class. This is a relatively minor quibble, but I feel like some kind of a durability increase would be more thematic for Guards, albeit it'd probably be just as problematic depending on the implementation and I don't have any concrete alternative to suggest. A straight defense dice bonus would be interesting for some units like Gurei-Oni, but also potentially frustrating when paired with stuff like the Crypt Guardians. It's a bit hard to balance.

Is Akhenaten intended to be the actual D&D Karnathi Skeleton monster? The name's Egyptian roots makes me think of Feylund first, but I'm not familiar with D&D lore. The further he gets from the Tomb Skeletons, the more that Skeletal Form stands out to me, but like I said earlier in this thread, I think that the power isn't good in the first place.
I think I have a happy middleground with the suggestions and feedback that you've given and there is a bit of precedent for it already on a unit that has a similar price point in Count Raymond. For the Crimson Blades, yes this is definitely references the interesting looking swords on the sculpt one of which has a wavey or flame-like design. My design vision was that the sword could grow in intensity.

Is the attitude of markers in the VC positive or negative? I've heard mixed results and that I should try to stay away from markers which is why I went with using the actual dice which is both easy to understand, hard to forget and you already have them.

This specific skeleton is meant to be from Feylund, not necessarily to be a complete mimic of the Eberron Karrnathi Skeleton because I don't believe those are iconic enough to be justified but I was drawing inspiration from what the sculpt was professionally designed to represent.

Skeletal Form is out, he isn't close enough to the Tomb Skeletons nor does he have direct command over them anymore. Feylund was his original home world from the beginning, that hasn't changed for me yet ^^

GENERAL = VALKRILL
PLANET = FEYLUND
SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = WARDEN
PERSONALITY = MILITARISTIC
SIZE/HEIGHT = Medium 4

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 90

CRIMSON BLADES
When Akhenaten rolls a normal attack against an enemy figure you may remove one of the die that rolled a skull from your roll and place it on this card to save it. After you roll a normal attack and before your opponent rolls defense, you may expend and move any number of saved skulls off this card to add them to your attack. Skulls that are moved off of Akhenaten's Army Card are expended, you can only have 2 Skulls saved on this Army Card at any one time.

GUARD MANEUVER 9
When Akhenaten or any Guard within 5 clear sight spaces Akhenaten, receives one or more wounds from a leaving engagement attack, immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 9 or higher, ignore all wounds from that leaving engagement attack.

Last edited by Shiftrex; January 10th, 2021 at 05:55 PM.
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  #4421  
Old January 11th, 2021, 04:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

This level of workshopping (where you're making quick, sweeping changes) should be done in your own thread first, but I'll chime in.

I don't think Crimson Blades is as interesting as it appears. I doubt it's worth the amount of text it takes. If I was playing this unit, at least 80% of the time I would simply do this:
If I roll 1 skull, save it.
If I have two saved skulls, use them.
There are cases where I would act differently, of course, but in general that's how it would play.

Guard Maneuver seems like a good addition, but it's still pretty risky to take an LEA. It's nice on Raymond because the spearmean really, really want to be able to disengage. On some Guards? Eh, I wouldn't use it much. I think true disengage would be fine if limited to an aura and just Guards. Though I somewhat agree with Astro that a generally aggressive movement ability isn't a great fit for "guards," which implies defenders of some kind. I don't have a great suggestion otherwise either, though.
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  #4422  
Old January 13th, 2021, 01:45 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



I've got some good availability currently on these figures, well over a hundred each throughout various locations and closer to 200 for one of them with ebay sources so I wanted to get some input on this before I started playtesting. These have been sitting in my drafts for a few weeks and I've been refining where they could go.

2 man squad with a movement mechanic inspired by the Durgeth Ravagers but communicates a slightly different theme. The Durgeth are probably my favorite squad in the game so my design notes take a bit of inspiration from them but I believe these function in a fundamentally different way.

I think that they provide some interesting interaction and support some hunter heroes that we have in the game and love very much that are missing some love. The immediate concern that I've had and am unable to think of a way around is that they technically can pull Himmelskralle into the fray if the Hunter is in a good position which is quite strong. I can't really restrict size though because then I miss out on a lot of interesting interactions like Dund and Arktos. I think I'm wanting to push forward and see if it's workable anyways. Himmel is good but Himmel is still a killable piece that involves a lot of risk, hence why she is a hunter to begin with, as opposed to a near unstoppable force like a true dragon.

There are a lot of interesting "northern" looking figures in this set that I think could turn into a small faction as well so there is that going for them.
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  #4423  
Old January 13th, 2021, 10:52 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Great find for figures.

"Different Wulfing Hunters squad" doesn't work. There is no such thing a different Wulfing Hunters squad, because they are all a single squad. You could say something like "you cannot move or attack with any Wulfing Hunters you moved or attacked with this turn" (if you want to be wordy), but that has an infinite-looping problem of two sets continually reactivating each other. It's just not worth trying to get to work.

It would be somewhat difficult to get a bonding squad through VC right now; there's been a strong pushback due to the feeling that the mechanic has been overused. Generic Hunter bonding, in particular, has been avoided, in part in hopes to find another way to make Hunter synergy, and in part to make Hunters into yet another bonding group. I think it's fitting with this design, though, and I like the added restriction.
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  #4424  
Old January 13th, 2021, 11:27 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A question on how the rules work then. If Hunter's Howl was constructed slightly differently to say: After revealing an Order Marker and taking a turn... take 1 additional turn with Wulfing Hunters (that did not attack this turn) or a Hunter Hero.

Would the text without the parathesis prevent infinite looping due to the nature of needing to reveal an Order Marker on the active turn to use Hunter's Howl? If so then I'm thinking I could using the additional wording, in parenthesis currently, to prevent the squad from getting double attack on figures because I dont think that's my theme here.

If not then I may consider moving to something similar to Flocking from ye olde beakface sneaks. I just want to make sure I understand how this structure should work.
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  #4425  
Old January 13th, 2021, 12:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiftrex View Post
A question on how the rules work then. If Hunter's Howl was constructed slightly differently to say: After revealing an Order Marker and taking a turn... take 1 additional turn with Wulfing Hunters (that did not attack this turn) or a Hunter Hero.

Would the text without the parathesis prevent infinite looping due to the nature of needing to reveal an Order Marker on the active turn to use Hunter's Howl? If so then I'm thinking I could using the additional wording, in parenthesis currently, to prevent the squad from getting double attack on figures because I dont think that's my theme here.

If not then I may consider moving to something similar to Flocking from ye olde beakface sneaks. I just want to make sure I understand how this structure should work.
I don't think it would prevent looping, since you did just reveal an order marker on the Wulfing Hunters. The text you have in parens is essentially the same as what I said above, except not in standard Heroscape language.
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  #4426  
Old January 13th, 2021, 01:37 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

The "one additional turn" part is different and yes, that prevents looping according to standard Heroscape language.

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  #4427  
Old January 13th, 2021, 04:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I like the idea of some stronger Hunter synergy. Himmelskralle is worrisome as a bonding figure because she can be very strong in the right situations (she's certainly much better than Dünd or the Master of the Hunt in that regard), but I believe that it can be balanced.

As another idea for reframing Hunter's Howl to allow for the self-bonding:
Quote:
HUNTER'S HOWL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card and before taking a turn with the Wulfing Hunters, if at least one Wulfing Hunter that you control is engaged, you may either move and attack with 4 Wulfing Hunters that you control or first take a turn with a Hunter Hero that you control.
That changes the condition to be checked at the start of the turn rather than the end, but it has the potential to streamline the wording a bit by essentially turning them into a 4-man squad in the right situations. I do like the idea of giving Hunter squads some love as well, but that's probably untenable because of classic designs without Order Marker restrictions like the Death Chasers of Thesk.

I don't love Hide in Tundra (I think Snow Strength would be just as thematic, albeit it makes them more fragile), but it's a fine power. Although it's weird thematically, I think that if the power is going to be a reskin of Hide in Darkness/Swamp, then the +6 bonus should be for the flat terrain (ice) and the +3 bonus should be for the normal terrain (snow). That helps create a consistent power between all three versions and should make it easier to remember. If you want the stronger bonus to be reserved for snow terrain, then I think that the naming convention of the power shouldn't mimic Hide in Darkness/Swamp so closely.

As a more big picture concern, I am a little worried that these guys will be bland to play. The Mohicans' War Cry requires much more setup to activate and is a more interesting decision point since they have range themselves. If just one Wulfing Hunter needs to be engaged for them to bond, then they're going to be getting those extra turns pretty often, and their only other real bit of mechanical flavor is a standard durability power. I think that the design could probably use a little more flair to really stand out beyond the Hunter synergy (as some quick examples, either a short ranged attack for the spears or bumping up the engagement requirement to 2 figures would create more decision potential for both players). That would also make the Hunter synergy more palatable to many VC members, I'd imagine, since it would make the design feel less like it exists just for that Hunter synergy.
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  #4428  
Old January 13th, 2021, 04:20 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
As another idea for reframing Hunter's Howl to allow for the self-bonding:
Quote:
HUNTER'S HOWL
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card and before taking a turn with the Wulfing Hunters, if at least one Wulfing Hunter that you control is engaged, you may either move and attack with 4 Wulfing Hunters that you control or first take a turn with a Hunter Hero that you control.
I don't love Hide in Tundra (I think Snow Strength would be just as thematic, albeit it makes them more fragile), but it's a fine power. Although it's weird thematically, I think that if the power is going to be a reskin of Hide in Darkness/Swamp, then the +6 bonus should be for the flat terrain (ice) and the +3 bonus should be for the normal terrain (snow). That helps create a consistent power between all three versions and should make it easier to remember. If you want the stronger bonus to be reserved for snow terrain, then I think that the naming convention of the power shouldn't mimic Hide in Darkness/Swamp so closely.

As a more big picture concern, I am a little worried that these guys will be bland to play. The Mohicans' War Cry requires much more setup to activate and is a more interesting decision point since they have range themselves. If just one Wulfing Hunter needs to be engaged for them to bond, then they're going to be getting those extra turns pretty often, and their only other real bit of mechanical flavor is a standard durability power. I think that the design could probably use a little more flair to really stand out beyond the Hunter synergy (as some quick examples, either a short ranged attack for the spears or bumping up the engagement requirement to 2 figures would create more decision potential for both players). That would also make the Hunter synergy more palatable to many VC members, I'd imagine, since it would make the design feel less like it exists just for that Hunter synergy.
Thanks for the comment! I'll take the wording change into consideration for Howl as it does make more sense. I'm not sure I understand the comment about Hide in Tundra from a thematic point of view.

Snow Strength is all around a worse power that ONLY has use on a given map, while a durability power for a 2 man squad has the potential to save activations on any map, with terrain increasing likelyhood. There are also key differences, Hide in Tundra works against all non-adjacent to include q9 and Nilfheim's specials. I'm also trying to tie this in to a faction that are far north survivalists, so a durability power should make more sense here instead of a bland situational attack/defense upgrade that wont see use often. I changed the modifiers to specifically account for the fact that hiding in Snow would be easier than hiding in Ice, their defensive power lines up more with camoflauge than anything because it doesnt trigger in melee.

I'll look into a different naming convention I think. Something like Tundra Survivalist maybe.

If it turns out to be too bland in testing, I'll definitely look for something else but they should be quite unique. I have no love for Snow Strength as an ability. Though I did consider Reach before, however I only have 1 figure with a spear. The other has a type of short sword.
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