Vehicle rules Discussion thread With Greyowl

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

Here's a mockup of how the cards would look (real special powers and stats to be filled in later).



What I was thinking is that we should use a single color scheme for the border and panels, just like official destructible object cards do. I'm not sure what colors would be best, though. The fog color should still be variable, based on the picture.

I love the look! Those background colors work fine for me as well. Should it say "Unique Vehicle" instead of "Unique Hero"? Hmm ... probably not, as that would influence too many official powers and the card should be targetable for powers like a unique hero would be ... Perhaps just a subtitle under "Batmobile" (should be "The Batmobile") that says "Vehicle."

Hmm ... another DO/Vehicle card compatibility issue I just thought of - if this were a DO card, we'd want a Superstrength symbol on the bottom of it. But we don't want that here, because we don't want the card having immunity to falling damage or bonuses against DOs. Not sure how to handle that one.

Are you looking for comments on changes for an actual Batmobile card now as well, or was this more just to establish the look?

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Another spelling fix in bold.

Fixed.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Should we change the bolded part to be "number of levels of difference there can be between the front and back end of the vehicle at the end of its move"? I fear opening it up to any part of the vehicle being on a different level could cause problems, so it might help to refer to it by the frontmost and backmost bases.

Done.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Nice distinction. I wonder if we could actually design the cards in such a way as to allow spots for the placement of Pilot/Gunner/Passengers? Or would that subtract too much from all the power text we'll want to include?

I think that might eat up too much room on the card.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Just a couple of quick fixes.

Fixed.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

A quick clarification added in bold.

I fixed it to specify normal and special attacks.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Since two based figures are considered "Large" in Heroscape, should this section be called "Huge" vehicles? Or even "Oversized Vehicles"?

Done. I like Oversized.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm not sure I completely understand this passage. An example might help clarify ...

This is the same thing you reworded above. I changed it to use your wording.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Nice addition. I could see something like "Exposed Vehicle" as a common special power that allows for attacking of all passengers directly. This will be a good thing to have a grasp on when we want to do boats, for instance.

Or Speeder Bikes...can you tell I really want to make those?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

This still needs a stipulation that a Vehicle can only drive through a figure if it can end its turn on unoccupied spaces. And I also think you should move this up to under the section about the Normal Attack from a Vehicle to improve the flow of this. This section feels a bit lost all the way down here.

Done.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I love the look! Those background colors work fine for me as well. Should it say "Unique Vehicle" instead of "Unique Hero"? Hmm ... probably not, as that would influence too many official powers and the card should be targetable for powers like a unique hero would be ... Perhaps just a subtitle under "Batmobile" (should be "The Batmobile") that says "Vehicle."

Added "Vehicle" as a subtitle. I decided against Unique Vehicle for the same reason you did.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hmm ... another DO/Vehicle card compatibility issue I just thought of - if this were a DO card, we'd want a Superstrength symbol on the bottom of it. But we don't want that here, because we don't want the card having immunity to falling damage or bonuses against DOs. Not sure how to handle that one.

I think the DO card (and this one) should use a different symbol. After all, even on DO cards it doesn't signify what SS normally stands for. It's something different.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Are you looking for comments on changes for an actual Batmobile card now as well, or was this more just to establish the look?

Not quite yet. I'm trying to catch up on all my HS task first.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hmm ... we could alter the way we do DO cards to make the move and normal attack adjustments based strictly on the size of the object and then use special attacks on the card to do the rest. Then straight up DO cards would allow you to use the special attacks as a figure and vehicle cards would require you to be in the vehicle to use them, but both would be things you could throw, wield, defend with, etc.
Does that sound workable?

Sounds good to me!

Updated rules in next post...

[GreyOwl]

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CUSTOM VEHICLE RULES 1.4

VEHICLE CARDS

Vehicle Cards have several differences from normal Army Cards.

1. Instead of a Species, there is a "PGP Limit". "PGP" stands for "Pilot, Gunner, and Passengers". This is a list of 3 numbers separated by slashes. The first number indicates the minimum number of Pilots needed to drive the vehicle, the second is the minimum number of Gunners needed for the vehicle to attack with its Base Attack (defined later), and the third number is the maximum number of passengers the vehicle can carry (including the Pilots and Gunnners). So a Police Car, for example, needs 1 driver, needs no gunner since the vehicle has no built in weapons, and can carry a total of 5 people. It's PGP Limit would be written as "1/0/5". On the card, this would be shown as "PGP 1/0/5", for example.

2. Instead of a Personality, a vehicle has a Climb Rating. A Climb Rating is a single number that shows the maximum number of levels a vehicle can go up or down between two hexes. It also determines the maximum number of levels difference there can be between the front and back end of the vehicle at the end of its move. This will be listed as "Climb 2", for example.

3. The class, size, and height are the same as for normal Army Cards.
4. Vehicle Cards have 2 Attack numbers. The first attack number is the Base Attack and the second attack number is the Collision Attack.

5. Vehicle Cards have 2 Move numbers. The first move number is the Base Move and the second move number is the Turn Radius.

USING VEHICLES - a vehicle requires figures in order to be used. Any figure that is on the Vehicle Card is considered to be inside the vehicle. Figures placed over the card name panel are considered Pilots. Figures placed over the card picture area are Gunners. Figures placed either next to the card or anywhere else on the card are considered Passengers.

ENTERING AND EXITING VEHICLES - a figure may enter a vehicle from any adjacent and same-level empty space. Entering the vehicle counts as two spaces of movement. Exiting the vehicle also counts as two spaces of movement.


PILOTS AND GUNNERS - In order for any vehicle to move or attack, it must have at least one figure placed on its card. It must have at least the number of pilots stated in the PGP Limit in order to move, and also the minimum number of gunners stated in the PGP Limit in order to attack. Usually the same figure can serve as both Pilot and Gunner, but some vehicles may require separate Pilots and Gunners.


PASSENGERS - In addition to any Pilots and Gunners, a vehicle may carry additional passengers. The maximum number of people a vehicle can carry, including Pilots and Gunners, is shown in the PGP Limit.


SIZE LIMITATIONS - Vehicles that are smaller than Huge can only carry Medium or smaller figures. Huge vehicles can carry figures of any size. Pilots and Gunners must be Medium with a height between 4 and 6. Note that this implies that no vehicles can be smaller than Medium, as it would not be possible to have a Pilot or Gunner for it. Any exceptions will be stated in a special power on the Vehicle Card.


ORDER MARKERS - a Vehicle Card never has Order Markers placed on it. The Pilot must have Order Markers on its card in order for the vehicle to move or attack with its Collision Attack. In order to attack with a normal or special attack, in addition to the Pilot needing an Order Marker, the minimum number of Gunners must also be present in the vehicle.


MOVING

PILOTING A VEHICLE - In order for a vehicle to move, you must reveal an Order Marker on a Pilot that is in the vehicle, and the minimum number of required Pilots must be in the vehicle.

TURN RADIUS - A Vehicle Card has two move numbers, seperated by a slash. The first number (known as the Base Move of the vehicle) is the total number of spaces it may move in a single turn, and is analogous to the move number of normal Army Cards. The second number (known as the Turn Radius of the vehicle) is the minimum number of spaces the vehicle must move in a straight line before changing direction. Note that there are 6 possible straight lines from each hex. If the second number is zero, then the vehicle would be able to move just like a normal figure. The Turn Radius only applies within a single turn and "resets" at the end of the turn. Therefore, there is no need to keep track of how many spaces the vehicle moved in a straight line between turns.

OVERSIZED VEHICLES - if a vehicle takes up more than two spaces, all movement should be measure off the hex that a key point of the vehicle is on. That key point will be designated by a yellow dot on the target zone picture of the vehicle.

TERRAIN EFFECTS - At the end of its movement, the maximum number of levels difference there can be between the front and back end of the vehicle is equivalent to the Climb Rating of the vehicle. Unless otherwise stated on a special power on the Vehicle Card, vehicles must obey the same rules of terrain as normal figures (they must stop when entering a water space, must roll for molten lava damage, etc.)

FALLING - vehicles are subject to falling damage in exactly the same way as normal figures.

CHANGING POSITIONS - instead of moving and attacking with a vehicle, you may rearrange the positions of any figures inside the vehicle. This can be used to switch between Pilots, Gunners, and Passengers either for purposes of special powers on that figure's card, or in anticipation of using that figure once they exit the vehicle.



COMBAT

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING WITH PILOTS AND GUNNERS - Pilots and Gunners inside a vehicle may not attack using their normal or special attacks, and may not use any other special abilities on their cards.

ATTACKING WITH PASSENGERS - Passengers in the vehicles may attack only with normal attacks that have a range greater than 1. When passengers attack from a vehicle, they roll 1 less attack die and have their range reduced by 1. Passengers may not use any special attacks while in a vehicle, but they can use other special powers on their cards. When using a special power that requires a roll of the 20-sided dice while in vehicle, subtract 2 from your roll.

ATTACKING AND DEFENDING WITH A VEHICLE- In order for a vehicle to attack with its Base Attack, you must reveal an Order Marker on either a Pilot or a Gunner that is in the vehicle, and the minimum number of required Gunners must be present inside the vehicle.
When a Gunner attacks from inside a vehicle only the stats and powers on the Vehicle Card are used. The stats and powers of any figures that are on the Vehicle Card are ignored. Line of sight is determined from the green dot on the target zone shown on the Vehicle Card. Pilots in a vehicle can only attack using the vehicle's Collision Attack.

COLLISIONS - A vehicle may drive through any figures that are Medium or smaller. Moving through a figure counts as 2 spaces of movement. When a vehicle moves through a figure, it counts as an attack against the figure. For the vehicle, attack using its Collision Attack number. The defending figure rolls defense dice normally. Note that a Gunner is not required to attack with a vehicle's Collision Attack, only a Pilot. A vehicle can drive over other figures only if it can end its turn on unoccupied spaces.

Enemy figures may only attack a vehicle, and not any figures that are on the Vehicle Card. When attacking or defending, vehicles get the same height advantage bonuses as normal figures. Some vehicles are designed in a way that their occupants are more exposed and can therefore be targeted directly. Those cases will be addressed through special powers on the vehicle card.

DESTRUCTION OF A VEHICLE - When a vehicle is destroyed, place all figures that were on the Vehicle Card on the spaces where the vehicle was. If no space is available on which to place a figure, then choose adjacent empty spaces. If no adjacent empty spaces are available, the figure is destroyed. After the vehicle is destroyed and all figures are placed on the appropriate spaces, roll the 20-sided die for each figure. If you roll 1-5, the figure is destroyed. If you roll 6-10 the figure receives two wounds. If you roll 11-15, the figure receives one wound. If you roll 16 or higher, the figure takes no damage. Figures with the Superstrength Symbol on their card are immune to this damage. Figures with the Force Symbol on their card may add 5 to their roll.

[Balantai]

This thread is awesome!

I'm going to try to tackle Combat, first.

Collision Damage:
Collision damage needs to possibly effect the vehicle also. We can accomplish this the same way we did with DO. We could force the Batmobile to roll defense against it's own collision attack in addition to the defending figure.

Attacking with a Vehicle:
Should attacking be determined by line of sight or should it have to a target in a figure in a straight line from the front of the vehicle?

Destruction of a Vehicle:
We should probably have a senario where the vehicle blows up and the figures take a bunch of damage. Maybe something like:
1 - 5 unbockable attack dice
2-10 2 unblockable attack dice
11-17 1 unblockable attack die
18+ 0 nothing happens

Also, I think passengers and drivers should possibly take damage every time the vehicle is damaged. That way, you could crash into the destructible wall and kill a thug in the back seat.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Balantai

I'm going to try to tackle Combat, first.

Collision Damage:
Collision damage needs to possibly effect the vehicle also. We can accomplish this the same way we did with DO. We could force the Batmobile to roll defense against it's own collision attack in addition to the defending figure.

I like the idea of it affecting the vehicle, but I'm not sure how to handle it thematically. Two vehicles colliding should cause damage to each other, perhaps by attacking each other with their Collision Attack. But a truck hitting a dwarf...I don't see the truck taking a lot of damage. One way is to just say the vehicle doesn't take damage against figures, only other vehicles. But I can see a possible exception for figures with Superstrength...

Originally Posted by Balantai

Attacking with a Vehicle:
Should attacking be determined by line of sight or should it have to a target in a figure in a straight line from the front of the vehicle?

I think LOS is simpler, and many vehicles with built-in weapons have adjustable turrets, guns, etc.

Originally Posted by Balantai

Destruction of a Vehicle:
We should probably have a senario where the vehicle blows up and the figures take a bunch of damage. Maybe something like:
1 - 5 unbockable attack dice
2-10 2 unblockable attack dice
11-17 1 unblockable attack die
18+ 0 nothing happens

The rules already have something like this.

Originally Posted by Balantai

Also, I think passengers and drivers should possibly take damage every time the vehicle is damaged. That way, you could crash into the destructible wall and kill a thug in the back seat.

That's an interesting idea, but it doesn't make sense in every case. What if you're in a tank?

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

I like the idea of it affecting the vehicle, but I'm not sure how to handle it thematically. Two vehicles colliding should cause damage to each other, perhaps by attacking each other with their Collision Attack. But a truck hitting a dwarf...I don't see the truck taking a lot of damage. One way is to just say the vehicle doesn't take damage against figures, only other vehicles. But I can see a possible exception for figures with Superstrength...

Did you ever hit a deer with your car? It's a good way to total your car. Hitting a person with your car will cause more damage than you would think.

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

That's an interesting idea, but it doesn't make sense in every case. What if you're in a tank?

Perhaps there should be an ability on a tank that states otherwise. Any basic vehicle could cause possible wounds to the figures on the inside.

[IAmBatman]

Still haven't read through the entire new set of rules, but regarding the current conversation and vehicles taking collision damage as well as what they're hitting. Maybe have it work so that if the vehicle attempts collision damage and doesn't cause any, then the vehicle has to defend against its own collision attack and take any resulting damage?
The wording's murky there, but you see what I'm getting at, right?
And then if the vehicle takes collision damage, for each wound it takes roll an unblockable attack die for each figure in the vehicle, that type of thing ...

[GreyOwl]

That might work.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

COMBAT

ATTACKING WITH PASSENGERS - Passengers in the vehicles may attack only with normal attacks that have a range greater than 1. When passengers attack from a vehicle, they roll 1 less attack die and have their range reduced by 1.

Should that say "to a minimum of 1 attack die"? I'm thinking Omnicron Snipers here.

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

COLLISIONS - A vehicle may drive through any figures that are Medium or smaller. Moving through a figure counts as 2 spaces of movement. When a vehicle moves through a figure, it counts as an attack against the figure. For the vehicle, attack using its Collision Attack number. The defending figure rolls defense dice normally. Note that a Gunner is not required to attack with a vehicle's Collision Attack, only a Pilot. A vehicle can drive over other figures only if it can end its turn on unoccupied spaces.

Shouldn't it be "Medium and Large vehicles may only drive through any figures that are Medium or smaller. Huge vehicles may drive through any figures."? If a starship can hold Grimnak, it can run him over.

Notice my responses are getting smaller and smaller as I run dry on nitpicks? I think this actually, surprisingly, might end up being a ton more straightforward than KB was!

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Still haven't read through the entire new set of rules, but regarding the current conversation and vehicles taking collision damage as well as what they're hitting. Maybe have it work so that if the vehicle attempts collision damage and doesn't cause any, then the vehicle has to defend against its own collision attack and take any resulting damage?
The wording's murky there, but you see what I'm getting at, right?
And then if the vehicle takes collision damage, for each wound it takes roll an unblockable attack die for each figure in the vehicle, that type of thing ...

Doesn't that make it seem like the person dodges the car but the car takes damage? Abilities like Stray and Spideysense would cause collision damage.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Balantai

Doesn't that make it seem like the person dodges the car but the car takes damage? Abilities like Stray and Spideysense would cause collision damage.

It also describes the Hulk standing there and getting hit, and not getting hurt but damaging the car. The problem is, HS doesn't really differentiate between the two scenarios.