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  #61  
Old April 6th, 2021, 12:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I could give you some reasons why I think the Arrow Gruts are pretty good if you'd like.

But if you're just going to go to a bunch of books and say "this unit sucks" without actually looking for discussion, then I'd kindly recommend that you stop.
Guy's got the right to an opinion just like everyone else. I personally don't like Arrow Gruts either, I'd never use them in a 500 competitive match in a million years. Mimring and Swog are too easy to kill, only Krug is capable of taking punishment really, since I don't use customs as a general rule.
Depends on play style. I see Arrow Gruts as a sort of Utgar Aurbean Archers with bonding. Seems good for a quick smash and grab but as for staying power they are limited so a quick attack is really what these guys are going for.

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  #62  
Old April 6th, 2021, 03:30 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I could give you some reasons why I think the Arrow Gruts are pretty good if you'd like.

But if you're just going to go to a bunch of books and say "this unit sucks" without actually looking for discussion, then I'd kindly recommend that you stop.
Guy's got the right to an opinion just like everyone else. I personally don't like Arrow Gruts either, I'd never use them in a 500 competitive match in a million years. Mimring and Swog are too easy to kill, only Krug is capable of taking punishment really, since I don't use customs as a general rule.
I want to say that Superfrog's response was because ErictheGreat was going into several different unit books and saying "this unit sucks" with very little or no extra stuff. It's very much ok to have an opinion, but you should probably back it up with a little more than whats listed on the card itself (talk about a game you had, compare it to similar units, strategies you've tried but didn't work, etc).

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  #63  
Old April 6th, 2021, 05:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Besides, I think now that the “AGs rely on Swogs” view is outdated and unoptimized. AGs with Mimring is a fantastic dragon build, and might be the best of all 3 (Nilf/GWs, Quahon/Spiders).

There’s a few reasons this works and when you look at the 500pt builds for each dragon build, you can start to see why.

185 Nilfhiem
365 Greenscale Warriors x3
445 Raelin the Kyrie Warrior
495 Marro Warriors (16 spaces)

190 Quahon
350 Fyorlag Spiders x4
430 Raelin the Kyrie Warrior
480 Marro Warriors
500 Marcu Esenwein (20 spaces)

150 Mimring
350 Arrow Gruts x5
430 Raelin the Kyrie Warrior
480 Marro Warriors
500 Marcu Esenwein (23 spaces)

Moving down from Nilfy/GWs, each army gives up some attack and defense along with Dragon durability* for move, range, threat range, and numbers. In a game where attacking first, and at range, is favorable, these are ok sacrifices.

It’s also notable that Quahon/Spiders and Mimi/AGs are able to add in Marcu as a Wannok soaker, keeping themselves, Raelin, and their squads safe unlike Nilfy and his army. Significant as the GWs have the least figures already.

*This is actually directly countered by the point after. Attacking from farther range means a safer Dragon, and a safe Dragon is greater than a durable Dragon.

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  #64  
Old April 8th, 2021, 05:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I could give you some reasons why I think the Arrow Gruts are pretty good if you'd like.

But if you're just going to go to a bunch of books and say "this unit sucks" without actually looking for discussion, then I'd kindly recommend that you stop.
Guy's got the right to an opinion just like everyone else. I personally don't like Arrow Gruts either, I'd never use them in a 500 competitive match in a million years. Mimring and Swog are too easy to kill, only Krug is capable of taking punishment really, since I don't use customs as a general rule.
I want to say that Superfrog's response was because ErictheGreat was going into several different unit books and saying "this unit sucks" with very little or no extra stuff. It's very much ok to have an opinion, but you should probably back it up with a little more than whats listed on the card itself (talk about a game you had, compare it to similar units, strategies you've tried but didn't work, etc).
Eh, disagree. I mean if he keeps making 3, 4 or 5 posts on the same thread about them sucking, ok, but I don't see a problem with someone expressing an opinion. Plus in his OP seemed he made a good point about why they did.

I personally don't think they suck, they are fun and can be useful, but for a 500 competitive? Nah, not for me.

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  #65  
Old April 8th, 2021, 10:13 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

I personally find them to be meh at best but it should never be taken for granted that they're the only Official ranged squad with Bonding.

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  #66  
Old April 9th, 2021, 10:54 AM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

See Unit Debate # 69 Arrow Gruts vs Blade Gruts which has them neck-and-neck (arrow winning by 1 point). My main point in that thread is I don't like AG as much because the Army design is rather boring
Quote:
Arrow Gruts should have at least 1 Swog for every 2 squads, so 5 squads of Arrow and 3 Swogs is 21 spaces 275 points and only leaves 3 spaces for other Beasts, Raelin, and/or Nerak.
However I do think that in Reverse-the-whip type tournaments or even home games with drafting, they can do well in the hand of an experienced player, I just think that same experienced player would usually do better with blades. But IMHO Blades are a "B+ tier" unit (80th percentile of all units) and I think Arrow Gruts are a smidge less "B" tier (75th percentile of all units) which means they are still good just not great.
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  #67  
Old April 12th, 2021, 08:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Lol actually, I feel the exact opposite to EricTheGreat. I imagine he likes the blade gruts because they have a sturdier hero to bond with (his main gripe against the arrow gruts is how fragile the swog rider is).

I HATE the blade gruts. Hate them. Lose every time I play them. Garbage, gross, ew, why would I ever draft them, blah blah you get the point. Some people have wrecked me with them, and I really don't get how. Give me a squad of heavies anyday.

But the arrow gruts? Love them a ton. I cleaned house against my girlfriend recently using one squad of arrow gruts and x4 swog riders, ending a 500-point game with 405 points still on the board lol. Seems like an unbalanced mix, right? Yeah, but not really. Played right, against the right army, a single squad of them can be so insanely devastating and seemingly unkillable. I have a very specific way that I play them, which is totally different than the generally accepted method, but it is extremely effective in certain drafts and most of all, it is FUN.

Point is, people like different figures. People are good with different figures. And people play them in different ways. I hate the blade gruts, but I really can't call them trash because I've been swarmed and disengaged and chomped to oblivion by blade grut armies before. And they are challenging to play against in the right hands, which makes them fun as well. Just not when they are in my hands lol. :/

And really, this applies to every figure in heroscape. Don't call something trash just because it doesn't fit your playstyle. That's how you underestimate an opponent's army and get wrecked by the player who knows the nuances of the figure lol
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  #68  
Old April 13th, 2021, 10:23 AM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Many people nowadays forget that Spider Poison won Gencon 2006 with 3x Arrow Gruts, 3x Swogs, Raelin, and Krug at 395 points.

Now that the game is more typically played at 500, there's an extra 100 points that you can use to create more strength in the list.

With 6 movement, they can claim height fairly easily, benefiting from height, Raelin, and a Swog to make the Gruts a pretty tough force to take out.

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  #69  
Old April 13th, 2021, 11:11 AM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_X_Marker View Post
Many people nowadays forget that Spider Poison won Gencon 2006 with 3x Arrow Gruts, 3x Swogs, Raelin, and Krug at 395 points.

Now that the game is more typically played at 500, there's an extra 100 points that you can use to create more strength in the list.

With 6 movement, they can claim height fairly easily, benefiting from height, Raelin, and a Swog to make the Gruts a pretty tough force to take out.
Benefiting from 3 swogs makes them even that much harder to kill
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  #70  
Old April 14th, 2021, 12:59 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

While spider_poison may have won a 2006 GenCon, that's still 2006 lol a lot of other classic scape came out after that which are far better for competitive one could argue :P

They are no longer viable IMO for 500 competitive, if we're talking classic scape only, IMO. Fun squad though for theme.

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  #71  
Old April 15th, 2021, 12:18 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Not gunna lie, this makes me want to run Arrow gruts and Mimring at my next event to see how they fare. I know I hate going vs them, I struggle to roll shields so I whiff often lol. That makes the tiny arrows threatening.
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  #72  
Old April 15th, 2021, 01:08 PM
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Re: The Book of Arrow Gruts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
While spider_poison may have won a 2006 GenCon, that's still 2006 lol a lot of other classic scape came out after that which are far better for competitive one could argue :P
While partially true, Spider had spoken about that in his forum post. The majority of the most competitive stuff (4th mass, Q9, rats) was already released at that point and he felt that he had a good chance in those matchups. So it stands to reason that the gruts would have a pretty good time in other matchups that feature slightly less competitive builds than the most popular competitive builds. Considering it's Spider Poison, I'm inclined to agree.

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