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  #4657  
Old September 19th, 2018, 10:55 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaesShurrig View Post
I understand that this could take a substantial amount of time, but I feel like a lot of the short summaries are too short. a few examples are:

Black Wyrmlings- "Cute as Krav or PK tech."

Eltahale- "She's pretty neat and has a cool attack."

Emirroon- "Well, he's more reliable than Saylind."

Granite Guardians- "They're just like Minions... only not."

Grok Riders- "I don't Grok the Groks."

Rhogar Dragonspine- "He's a dude."

Shurrak- "Bowl for Romans!"

There are more like this, but I feel like you get the point. Not to mention, there are a few that just refer you to other units, but I don't think that's super helpful, especially for newcomers to the game. While I get that these descriptions aren't all too serious, what would someone who doesn't understand the meta gain from (say Grimnak's description, which is literally just "CHOMP.") reading them?
The original power rankings (back when spider wrote them) were fairly tongue-in-cheek and heavily influenced by his appreciation of ranged units (and the maps that favored them). He was honestly surprised that they were as popular as they were. When units are kinda bad and not worth playing in a tournament, there isn't much to say beyond "he's a dude." I can't imagine wanting to use Rhogar in a competitive event.

When it comes to most of the D&D units, I probably didn't get enough time with them at a competitive level to understand them; Eltahale is a good example and a great cleanup unit, and this 1x or 2x Mezzo spiciness is something new, but also something that probably wouldn't have appeared in the 24-hex, non Reverse the Whip era.

Even though I'm lurking again a bit, I'm hesitant to make a ton of changes here because A) I hardly play enough to have more informed decisions than many of you B) It takes a bit of time C) I think it might provide an interesting snapshot of that time period and playing style.

The biggest thing I've noticed when I have come back is the map changes. Smaller foot prints and "bridge" shaped maps rather than "valley" maps with the height largely in the middle has been a huge boon for melee armies, and why I begrudging accept all of your 4th = 10th claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #4658  
Old September 22nd, 2018, 05:39 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaesShurrig View Post
I understand that this could take a substantial amount of time, but I feel like a lot of the short summaries are too short. a few examples are:

Black Wyrmlings- "Cute as Krav or PK tech."

Eltahale- "She's pretty neat and has a cool attack."

Emirroon- "Well, he's more reliable than Saylind."

Granite Guardians- "They're just like Minions... only not."

Grok Riders- "I don't Grok the Groks."

Rhogar Dragonspine- "He's a dude."

Shurrak- "Bowl for Romans!"

There are more like this, but I feel like you get the point. Not to mention, there are a few that just refer you to other units, but I don't think that's super helpful, especially for newcomers to the game. While I get that these descriptions aren't all too serious, what would someone who doesn't understand the meta gain from (say Grimnak's description, which is literally just "CHOMP.") reading them?
The original power rankings (back when spider wrote them) were fairly tongue-in-cheek and heavily influenced by his appreciation of ranged units (and the maps that favored them). He was honestly surprised that they were as popular as they were. When units are kinda bad and not worth playing in a tournament, there isn't much to say beyond "he's a dude." I can't imagine wanting to use Rhogar in a competitive event.

When it comes to most of the D&D units, I probably didn't get enough time with them at a competitive level to understand them; Eltahale is a good example and a great cleanup unit, and this 1x or 2x Mezzo spiciness is something new, but also something that probably wouldn't have appeared in the 24-hex, non Reverse the Whip era.

Even though I'm lurking again a bit, I'm hesitant to make a ton of changes here because A) I hardly play enough to have more informed decisions than many of you B) It takes a bit of time C) I think it might provide an interesting snapshot of that time period and playing style.

The biggest thing I've noticed when I have come back is the map changes. Smaller foot prints and "bridge" shaped maps rather than "valley" maps with the height largely in the middle has been a huge boon for melee armies, and why I begrudging accept all of your 4th = 10th claims.
I totally get not wanting to change the original post due to nostalgia, new information or whatever, totally get that. It really is a good tier list, and now that I know @OrcElfArmyOne is working on a more current power ranking list, maybe it isn't so necessary to change this original one. I'm fairly new to this community, and while there are still units I have yet to use (I've been dreading having to purchase Aquilla's Alliance) or have the chance to enter a tournament, I do think it's important to give each unit a decent testament. If you look at who's won any major tournament's it's pretty obvious that Deathwalker 7000 sucks and Raelin is overpowered, but if Raelin's description was just "She's overpowered," it's not helpful, and that's really all I was getting at.

Again, I'm fine if this list stays the same, especially with Orc's work on a new power ranking list. It is a loooooooot of work to compile this, so thank you for that and thanks for responding
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  #4659  
Old September 22nd, 2018, 11:44 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings: Complete?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JaesShurrig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaesShurrig View Post
I understand that this could take a substantial amount of time, but I feel like a lot of the short summaries are too short. a few examples are:

Black Wyrmlings- "Cute as Krav or PK tech."

Eltahale- "She's pretty neat and has a cool attack."

Emirroon- "Well, he's more reliable than Saylind."

Granite Guardians- "They're just like Minions... only not."

Grok Riders- "I don't Grok the Groks."

Rhogar Dragonspine- "He's a dude."

Shurrak- "Bowl for Romans!"

There are more like this, but I feel like you get the point. Not to mention, there are a few that just refer you to other units, but I don't think that's super helpful, especially for newcomers to the game. While I get that these descriptions aren't all too serious, what would someone who doesn't understand the meta gain from (say Grimnak's description, which is literally just "CHOMP.") reading them?
The original power rankings (back when spider wrote them) were fairly tongue-in-cheek and heavily influenced by his appreciation of ranged units (and the maps that favored them). He was honestly surprised that they were as popular as they were. When units are kinda bad and not worth playing in a tournament, there isn't much to say beyond "he's a dude." I can't imagine wanting to use Rhogar in a competitive event.

When it comes to most of the D&D units, I probably didn't get enough time with them at a competitive level to understand them; Eltahale is a good example and a great cleanup unit, and this 1x or 2x Mezzo spiciness is something new, but also something that probably wouldn't have appeared in the 24-hex, non Reverse the Whip era.

Even though I'm lurking again a bit, I'm hesitant to make a ton of changes here because A) I hardly play enough to have more informed decisions than many of you B) It takes a bit of time C) I think it might provide an interesting snapshot of that time period and playing style.

The biggest thing I've noticed when I have come back is the map changes. Smaller foot prints and "bridge" shaped maps rather than "valley" maps with the height largely in the middle has been a huge boon for melee armies, and why I begrudging accept all of your 4th = 10th claims.
I totally get not wanting to change the original post due to nostalgia, new information or whatever, totally get that. It really is a good tier list, and now that I know @OrcElfArmyOne is working on a more current power ranking list, maybe it isn't so necessary to change this original one. I'm fairly new to this community, and while there are still units I have yet to use (I've been dreading having to purchase Aquilla's Alliance) or have the chance to enter a tournament, I do think it's important to give each unit a decent testament. If you look at who's won any major tournament's it's pretty obvious that Deathwalker 7000 sucks and Raelin is overpowered, but if Raelin's description was just "She's overpowered," it's not helpful, and that's really all I was getting at.

Again, I'm fine if this list stays the same, especially with Orc's work on a new power ranking list. It is a loooooooot of work to compile this, so thank you for that and thanks for responding
I will say that where the units are ranked are pretty much going to stay the same until next summer (GenCon time and the Main Event armies I prep with). Many of the switches I made are also reflected in dok's VC power rankings of just units misranked (Eltahale, Romans, MoU/SoJ, MBS, Nilf, etc), while other changes are definitely less community-held opinions (although I still made the changes because they're wrong ). I just need to put in the time to write descriptions for units and why they are where they are.
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  #4660  
Old December 5th, 2018, 04:33 PM
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Re: Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

I know I said I wouldn't really make changes, but I decided to make a couple:

Blade Gruts and Arrow Gruts: Up from B to B+. It just didn't seem right to have them a whole grade below Venocs.

Atlaga, Minions of Utgar, Sentinels of Jandar: Down from A- to B. Squads this expensive are rarely worth it, no matter how good their stats are.

Fire elemental down to B+ from A-. If the A's represent what to expect in tournaments, it doesn't make sense to see Kurrok and co. up there.

I plan to keep most of the other discrepancies OEAO's list has with mine though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; December 5th, 2018 at 05:08 PM.
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  #4661  
Old December 5th, 2018, 08:13 PM
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Re: Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I know I said I wouldn't really make changes, but I decided to make a couple:

Blade Gruts and Arrow Gruts: Up from B to B+. It just didn't seem right to have them a whole grade below Venocs.

Atlaga, Minions of Utgar, Sentinels of Jandar: Down from A- to B. Squads this expensive are rarely worth it, no matter how good their stats are.

Fire elemental down to B+ from A-. If the A's represent what to expect in tournaments, it doesn't make sense to see Kurrok and co. up there.

I plan to keep most of the other discrepancies OEAO's list has with mine though.
I think this is a really good set of final changes for the official rankings. As you said before, yours nicely reflects the power levels back in the earlier part of the game's competitive life, and I still refer back to it often.
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  #4662  
Old December 7th, 2018, 11:30 PM
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Re: Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I know I said I wouldn't really make changes, but I decided to make a couple:

Blade Gruts and Arrow Gruts: Up from B to B+. It just didn't seem right to have them a whole grade below Venocs.

Atlaga, Minions of Utgar, Sentinels of Jandar: Down from A- to B. Squads this expensive are rarely worth it, no matter how good their stats are.

Fire elemental down to B+ from A-. If the A's represent what to expect in tournaments, it doesn't make sense to see Kurrok and co. up there.

I plan to keep most of the other discrepancies OEAO's list has with mine though.
I agree about the Gruts, they're absolutely better than B. B+ fits them, I'd say.

I agree with Atlaga, but disagree with the two kyries. The two kyries are too strong for B; A- could be too high, but below B+ is too low in my opinion. They're strong squads, and if you compensate for cookie cutter swarms with the rest of your army then they'll shine. Q9+Minionsx2 is quite strong (probably sentinels too), and Sentinels+4th is hella strong (and the less-seen Minions+10th). Them + PKs I like too. I can concede A- might be too high but I really can't see them lower than B+. Especially if we're starting to lean towards lower hex/figure counts where common hordes are smaller.

But yeah Atlaga lower I def agree with. He's a deadly tool, but only ~1/4 of games his bolt will strike, and will it always be in a game where the thing he kills is very high in points?

Fire Elemental lower I agree with, your reasoning makes sense. I'm always very wary about that army anyways; Kurrok dying is such a flaw. Also I can see it stuggling on a lot of SotM maps, which is 1/3 to 1/2 of map pools usually.
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