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  #2485  
Old June 10th, 2018, 01:58 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I really like how he creates new options for using old units. I remember Krug, the Ice Troll Berserker, and the Feral Troll off the top of my head--which ones am I missing?

Dismiss the Rabble sounds slightly weird from a thematic standpoint to me (mostly just that I doubt this Troll will call things "rabble" when compared to stuff like the Templars), but I don't really mind its use here.

On a surface level, he looks very strong for 140 points to me, albeit I haven't played with the D&D Trolls before, which is a massive part of the design. The potential for getting three Hero turns in a single Order Marker is intimidating, especially if one of those can be Krug.

It's also nice to see you mention a dungeon crawl test, though, since I think it's neat to see more "campaign-oriented" units every now and then.
Those are all of his current bonding options.

When designing him I was thinking of "Rabble" as it is used for the Horned Skull Brutes' "Expendable Rabble". I wouldn't mind dropping the power if others don't find the theme to fit, but I do like how it helps him against squads and encourages him to be played as a shark.

Because the Troll Warcharge being situational bonding, it requires Juggling Order Markers, to get the most of it. You also can lose a lot of board control when just using the heroes. The Feral Troll is a good option for heroes only and dungeon crawls, but not much else, The Ice Trolls go very well with Gruoark because of their charge allowing them to catch up with him and hit hard, but can be pretty frail and Krug is Gruoark's most consistent bonding option, but is harder to move into position than the Ice Troll.

One of the concerns of the judges during his previous submission was his strength in Heroes only and Dungeon Crawls because of his healing and his synergy with the Feral Troll.
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  #2486  
Old June 10th, 2018, 02:16 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

A better way to word the Charge would read
"After revealing an order marker on and taking a turn with Gruorak, if Gruorak destroyed an opponents figure you may take a turn with up to 2 other troll heroes you control."

I think his miniature is SAWEET and I already have him, and I'm pretty sure there's enough availability to make him work...BUT I'm not loving the current design.

I think dismiss the rabble makes no sense with 1 defense as his base. The templars go from 3 def to 4 which makes them substantially more hard to kill for small and medium squaddies and that makes the ability thematic. A hulking troll on the other hand with 1 defense raising it to 2 really doesn't make him that much harder to kill imo. That said, 8 life is hard to burn through, so I could be wrong...just my own thought since he just seems like more of a beast than the other trolls. He's bigger and taller than Krug and Krug has 3 def and 8 life...so there's that too.
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  #2487  
Old June 10th, 2018, 09:55 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

If you wanted to get across that same vibe you could make it so he doesn't take LEA from squads.
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  #2488  
Old June 10th, 2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Toogwick_tuk View Post
Those are all of his current bonding options.

When designing him I was thinking of "Rabble" as it is used for the Horned Skull Brutes' "Expendable Rabble". I wouldn't mind dropping the power if others don't find the theme to fit, but I do like how it helps him against squads and encourages him to be played as a shark.
I completely forgot about the Horned Skull Brutes. He's not an Orc so the connection between them isn't immediate for me (although they do have the "Brute" going for them as a connection), but now that you've pointed it out, I see the link.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toogwick_tuk View Post
Because the Troll Warcharge being situational bonding, it requires Juggling Order Markers, to get the most of it. You also can lose a lot of board control when just using the heroes. The Feral Troll is a good option for heroes only and dungeon crawls, but not much else, The Ice Trolls go very well with Gruoark because of their charge allowing them to catch up with him and hit hard, but can be pretty frail and Krug is Gruoark's most consistent bonding option, but is harder to move into position than the Ice Troll.
The problem that I can see is that there is little inherent risk in loading all of your Order Markers on him. For example, in a Heat of Battle match, I see no reason to not take the risk of taking a turn with him, if getting that kill will you net you both the turn that you wanted and another one. Granted, Heat of Battle is not the norm, but I'd argue that it's about as relevant as Heroes Only formats.

I like how the Ice Trolls function well with him. I've never cared much about them, so it's nice to see a unit that gives them more use, but I think that Krug will likely overshadow them still. Even if the trolls are slow, they have a ton of terrifying firepower (albeit, to be fair, Gruoark could be even easier to kill than Krug, so he might not last long on the frontlines).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
If you wanted to get across that same vibe you could make it so he doesn't take LEA from squads.
I could see this being more effective in some cases, although since he wants to destroy a figure each turn, he'll probably be aiming for the squad figures, not the heroes.
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  #2489  
Old June 10th, 2018, 02:05 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Regenerate can be a bit frustrating to play against as a power already in some situations. Being able to remove three (or even four) wound markers on one order marker is a concern I have looking at this iteration.

I also see the hero-to-hero bonding, especially adding explicit synergy to the Feral troll, as a count against. I suspect others disagree here though.
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  #2490  
Old June 10th, 2018, 02:31 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Regenerate can be a bit frustrating to play against as a power already in some situations. Being able to remove three (or even four) wound markers on one order marker is a concern I have looking at this iteration.

I also see the hero-to-hero bonding, especially adding explicit synergy to the Feral troll, as a count against. I suspect others disagree here though.
Being able to heal so much could be frustrating, especially since smart plays will make prioritizing a single Troll more difficult. Thankfully, each wound marker has to be removed from a different target (except for in the case of the Ice Troll Berserker, which only has a maximum of 4 life anyways), which might stop it from being too powerful in practice.

I don't see adding explicit synergy to the Feral Troll as a downside. The design is aiming to create a new option to use the trolls in the game, which the Feral Troll happens to fall under. I do find the synergy to be a little thematically shaky (mostly because I don't see why a bunch of random trolls are willing to work with Gruoark on the basis of being a troll), but there's plenty of examples of that in classic HeroScape already.
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  #2491  
Old June 10th, 2018, 02:46 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
...The design is aiming to create a new option to use the trolls in the game, which the Feral Troll happens to fall under...
A worthy goal for a custom, but a count against (in my book at least) when it comes to adding to the canon. I think that SoV/C3V have already added too much synergy; "fixing" units never seemed to be a concern of the original designers and I think the game is better for that attitude.

A unit that adds synergy to an existing stand-alone unit is going to have to be very special to persuade me. (FWIW, I take the same line inside the C3V and, with reasonable frequency, lose the argument. My stance here is certainly not that it's OK for C3V to do it but not SoV.)
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  #2492  
Old June 10th, 2018, 03:12 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
...The design is aiming to create a new option to use the trolls in the game, which the Feral Troll happens to fall under...
A worthy goal for a custom, but a count against (in my book at least) when it comes to adding to the canon. I think that SoV/C3V have already added too much synergy; "fixing" units never seemed to be a concern of the original designers and I think the game is better for that attitude.
While he does add new synergies, I don't view Gruoark as a "fix" since I could see people drafting the Feral Troll without him, and it doesn't look overly forced to me. It feels less like he was designed to help the trolls and more that helping trolls is a part of the design, although that could just be my interpretation.
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  #2493  
Old June 10th, 2018, 03:16 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Fair enough. Perhaps I shouldn't have brought "fixes" into it; the synergy-addition is where my objection is and "fixing" stuff isn't the only motivation for doing that.
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  #2494  
Old June 10th, 2018, 03:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
A better way to word the Charge would read
"After revealing an order marker on and taking a turn with Gruorak, if Gruorak destroyed an opponents figure you may take a turn with up to 2 other troll heroes you control."

I think his miniature is SAWEET and I already have him, and I'm pretty sure there's enough availability to make him work...BUT I'm not loving the current design.

I think dismiss the rabble makes no sense with 1 defense as his base. The templars go from 3 def to 4 which makes them substantially more hard to kill for small and medium squaddies and that makes the ability thematic. A hulking troll on the other hand with 1 defense raising it to 2 really doesn't make him that much harder to kill imo. That said, 8 life is hard to burn through, so I could be wrong...just my own thought since he just seems like more of a beast than the other trolls. He's bigger and taller than Krug and Krug has 3 def and 8 life...so there's that too.
Thanks for the wording help!!! Yeah I can definitely see the point in not having "Dismiss the Rabble" because of how little it affects his defense (in most of my games it never really helped him much). I originally had his defense at 2, but lowered it to match the Feral Troll because they are both unarmored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
The problem that I can see is that there is little inherent risk in loading all of your Order Markers on him. For example, in a Heat of Battle match, I see no reason to not take the risk of taking a turn with him, if getting that kill will you net you both the turn that you wanted and another one. Granted, Heat of Battle is not the norm, but I'd argue that it's about as relevant as Heroes Only formats.

I like how the Ice Trolls function well with him. I've never cared much about them, so it's nice to see a unit that gives them more use, but I think that Krug will likely overshadow them still. Even if the trolls are slow, they have a ton of terrifying firepower (albeit, to be fair, Gruoark could be even easier to kill than Krug, so he might not last long on the frontlines).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
If you wanted to get across that same vibe you could make it so he doesn't take LEA from squads.
I could see this being more effective in some cases, although since he wants to destroy a figure each turn, he'll probably be aiming for the squad figures, not the heroes.
I really think Heat of Battle can be a double edged sword for the Troll army as they can be focused down more easily by melee squads. Focusing on one unit is really the downfall of the Trolls as Gruoark and the rest often can't stay on the board, unless they regenerate a lot.

I don't think that he should be able to ignore LEA because Regenerate, effectively already allows him to do that. I think I'm gonna drop Dismiss the Rabble because it doesn't add a lot to the design, and having just two powers allows him to be more simple.


and @ollie I understand the hesitation with adding new synergy, but I think adding a leader unit that is also a shark is adding something new to 'Scape, as he plays very different from all of the other Scape leader units like Kato, Ulginesh, etc.. The closest comparison to a leader would be Death Commander Mark 3 as he also needs to be a little sharky to get turns with command beacon (but he has a lot more flexibility with the synergy within his faction).
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  #2495  
Old June 10th, 2018, 04:04 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Toogwick_tuk View Post
and @ollie I understand the hesitation with adding new synergy, but I think adding a leader unit that is also a shark is adding something new to 'Scape, as he plays very different from all of the other Scape leader units like Kato, Ulginesh, etc.. The closest comparison to a leader would be Death Commander Mark 3 as he also needs to be a little sharky to get turns with command beacon (but he has a lot more flexibility with the synergy within his faction).
That it's doing something interesting and fun is certainly an argument that might overcome my objection, but it's still an objection that needs overcoming. I think that adding synergy to a currently-unsynergised unit is undesirable.

(This is all consistent with what you said, I just wanted to make sure my position was clear.)
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  #2496  
Old June 10th, 2018, 04:26 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Issues I have with it.

1-Just ditch Dismiss the Rabble, feels like tacking on.

2-Attack of 6, will trigger the Mega Troll turns too often.(And I am too, very worried that 3+ wounds could be removed via 1 order marker.)

3-Bonding to other trolls, I don't feel the theme as to why the other trolls suddenly are now rushing in. Trolls are menacing, vicious as it is. This would scream as a power that makes lesser units coming into battle, not already blood thirsty killers.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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