4th>10th

[GreatWhiteWolf]

Originally Posted by Revdyer

No, you do not need an order marker on the champion (or beast, or whatever you are bonding with), you get the turn as a "bonus."

ok thanks

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Jexik, I've heard you say before that the 4th Mass are more about getting height than not moving and getting WtF. I think the 10th are better at getting height than the 4th because they can engage enemy units already on height and get 3 attack, allowing them to kill easier than if they had 2 attack. They then can take the height for themselves.

Also, engaging in melee allows you to get farther down the field than if you were to shoot from range. Lets say I am shooting at your (for example) Heavy Gruts from 6 range. If I were instead to close the distance, those 5 spaces inbetween would now become my territory.

[Jexik]

It has been nearly 10 years since anyone posted in this thread, but I thought I'd resurrect it to point at my third debate point:

Originally Posted by Jexik

3)The 10th are just as good, if not strictly better than the 4th when facing a full melee army.

I don't know if it's the smaller footprint maps, Ken's prosletyzing, the 16 hex/figure limit (which works well for 3x Melee bonded squads, but not for ranged + rats), or other facets of the GenCon formats, but melee has become way more popular since I used to play regularly, to the point that I think the 10th are better than before. Stingers are similarly less good because their 3 attacks and 5 range hurt when facing 5-attack melee armies.

What are your thoughts? It seems like 10th would be too strong for RtW.

[lefton4ya]

I think both as a base of the army (4-5 squads) are too strong for RTW tournaments, but I have seen non-valiant 4th in as well as 2-3 squads of 4th or 10th plus some other units in RTW tournaments. Gencon 2018 finalists included:
4. Evan (Marcus, 4th x2, Romans x2, Q10) 4-1
12. Dysole (4th Mass x2, Templar x2, Raelin, Eldgrim) 3-2
3-2 Day 1 (missed Day 2 due to D20 roll): Gabe G - 10th x3, Taelord, Raelin

I agree that in non-RTW tournaments with limited start zone spaces (18 or less) that 10th are better now then in years past. I think it more has to do with smaller maps and more road, all in all things that help melee. Plus many C3V units are almost designed to counter 4th, Q9, Rats, and Raelin.

[vegietarian18]

I brought 10th x2 Raelin Taelord Mario Warriors back in 2015 when the meta was a lot stronger and that build was still too strong. My dad even did 10th x1 in 2017 and that wasn't a weak army at all. Wait Then Fire is just really good and the army building versatility of the 10th makes it easier to take them in the complex builds necessary for RtW compared to the 4th

[Cleon]

I view it pretty much the same as I viewed it before. I think 4th are better, but the difference isn't large enough to put them in separate tiers/ranks. 10th are better against melee, 4th are definitely better against range. but with that said, it's important to note 10th lose much harder to range than 4th lose to melee, that's the vital difference between the two.

With the rise of melee I don't think it changes things too too much. It closes the gap a tad more I suppose. 4th aren't really bad against melee or anything; I don't feel like I'm in a 'great matchup' or something if I play all melee into 4th. The 4th also have Charos as an option, and Charos is a pain in the *** for melee to deal with. I'd say Charos+4thx4 is quite good in the 16 figure setting. You could swap a squad for Sam Brown too if sitting a 4th Mass bugs you. And in 18 figure limit setting, which I like way better, the army is unaffected.

[Jexik]

Bumping this because it came up in the recent Casters of Valhalla episode 11 where Vegie says that 10th are way better.

I don't see why you can't use the 4th in soldier or A+ junk builds and save 5-15 points.

I honestly kinda think 4th= 10th now just based on the matchups out there, but I'd take trons over either one in a tournament.

So to me the top ranged squads looks more like:

Blasts> 4th = 10th > Stingers

[vegietarian18]

I mean it's 15 points saved for no Bayonet and no melee defense. So I'd rather have the Reds.

Honestly Blues are quite difficult to rate since they force an army composition of spammed Blues. It really depends on what your criteria is for rating figures.

I do think Trons are better than both in terms of a "win the tournament" style army. Probably why Trons got a Gencon Main Event win and 4th didn't.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Things haven’t changed much for me, 10th, then Trons, then 4th. I’d put stingers way further down. I’d probably put Micro, Aubriens, and anything with 7 range higher than the Stingers. I might even say Harqs and Mohicans are above Stingers. Of course I’m basing this against the typical type of armies I play. Really the only ranged squads that I don’t want to see are the Trons and 10th. 4th are annoying but definitely beatable. Anything else I feel is generally a walk in the park.

[dok]

So much of our thinking on this is colored by the figure limits that are way more popular now than they were when you made this thread. 10th get more out of Raelin and other support than 4th do. 4th are best with just more 4th. Literally anything else makes them (relatively) weaker.

350 point 20 figures? 420 point full startzones? 4th are still awfully good in those cases. We just don't see those.

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by dok

So much of our thinking on this is colored by the figure limits that are way more popular now than they were when you made this thread.

Agreed.

10th get more out of Raelin and other support than 4th do. 4th are best with just more 4th. Literally anything else makes them (relatively) weaker.

Disagreed. They get the same benefit from Raelin/Marcus/whoever. Only if you plan on running Raelin and end up facing a lot of melee and the point totals line up right, are the 10th gonna be better.

350 point 20 figures? 420 point full startzones? 4th are still awfully good in those cases. We just don't see those.

460 points 18 figures?


4x Mass 280
Q9 (Or Raelin + Marcus) 460


At other point totals 10-20 points difference means you can have the same thing as a Redcoat army plus Isamu or Marcu.


Remember I'm not even trying to argue that 4th are better anymore. I just think that people seem to forget that 4th already have all the same synergy bonuses... they just happen to get back 1 of their defense dice if Raelin and Marcus die.

[Dysole]

I mean I made Day 2 of Gencon trying out this idea by running 4th x2, Raelin, Templar x2, Eldgrim. I don't know if it would have been better with 10th since I basically trade Eldgrim for Marcu which might've mattered on some margins, but them having 3 defense when Raelin died definitely was a factor in at least one of my games.

~Dysole, who admittedly made Day 2 by the skin of her teeth with that build