Public Design Workshop

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

IMO, Nightcrawler I, unless a big overhaul takes place, I think a Nightcrawler II is the only way it'll probably meet my expectations/desires.

My problems with Nightcrawler I:
-Can't carry allies or enemies when teleporting
-He only teleports once per turn, is instead of moving, and is only decently ranged if he doesn't attack.
-His multi-attack is a special attack instead of multiple normals.
-His evade is not as good as it should be.

That's a pretty tall order to re-evaluate that, because you'd essentially have to change everything on his card to get it to where it actually encompasses Nightcrawler's potential. Nightcrawler I feels like a very restrained, dumbed down version of what Nightcrawler could, and should be. He should be very tricky to get a hold of, able to maneuver the battlefield with the best of them, and place allies and enemies where he wants them to be placed, moving, teleporting, and attacking throughout his turn.

That's the Nightcrawler I know and love. Of course, that's just my opinion. Maybe some out there see it as just fine the way it is. Being my favorite X-men, and in my top 10 overall favorite characters in comics, perhaps makes me expect more out of the character. All that I listed above can easily be on 1 card.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I guess my overall point is, I feel the first design just isn't savable by the usual re-evaluation type of changes. Normally, re-evaluation is just going to slightly alter a power, stats, or points, to make the figure more balanced or viable. Be it lowering or raising a d20 roll, or lowering life or defense etc.

IMO, Nightcrawler should be able to do much more than his current card is capable of. Just look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLOMdddg11A

and

https://youtu.be/BC3xYAgthkA?t=11s

The key components I see in these 2 prime examples of how Nightcrawler acts in combat:

• He moves and teleports, not just either or.
• He teleports others with him, as a means of transportation, saving an ally, or to put an enemy at a disadvantage.
• He doesn't have to attack just to keep teleporting.
• He can move, attack, move, because he's incredibly acrobatic and well trained in combat, especially with swords.
• He is very hard to hit.

These are the key, and really the only, factors that make up Nightcrawler. You could play up the acrobatics and sword proficiency, but ultimately to get Nightcrawler correct, you need to have everything in those bullet points to be true to the character, and to do him justice. That's really not a lot considering most of those aspects can be tackled in 3 powers easily.

Let him attack and move at any point during his turn. Let him BAMF several times regardless of how many attacks he does, or at all. Let him move and BAMF both in a single turn, not one or the other(he should be all over the battlefield). Let him carry allies and enemies. Make him very hard to get to.

To get his current version as close to this as possible, you'd have to make these changes, without completely changing up how he works of course:

NAME = NIGHTCRAWLER
SECRET IDENTITY = KURT WAGNER

SPECIES = MUTANT
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = RECLUSE
PERSONALITY = DEVOUT

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 150-160

BAMF!
Instead of moving Nightcrawler normallyAt any point before, during, or after Nightcrawler's movement, you may choose an empty space within 3 spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. When Nightcrawler starts to Bamf!, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Nightcrawler may add 5 spaces to his Bamf! movement. If he does, he cannot attack this turn.

TELEPORTING BARRAGE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
When Nightcrawler attacks with his Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, he may attack two additional times. Nightcrawler may use his Bamf! special power after each attack. Nightcrawler must use his Bamf! special power to move at least one space before each additional attack.

TELEPORT EVADE
If Nightcrawler is attacked by a normal attack from an opponent's figure, and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1-8, roll defense dice normally. If you roll 9 or higher, Nightcrawler takes no damage and may immediately move using his Bamf! special power. Nightcrawler can Teleport Evade only if he uses his Bamf! special power to move at least one space.

It doesn't solve him being able to carry, or his multiple attacks being normal attacks, but it at least gets much closer to how he should play, IMO.

Evade at 9 and defense at 4 is better than Spidey so they 160 would be a little off.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Letting BAMF! activate mid-movement is actually pretty ingenious. It's something we wouldn't have done when we first designed him, but now that we're a bit looser with that sort of thing it's probably a no-brainer and really helps his flexibility.

Not entirely sure what you mean by cutting the "if he does he cannot attack" - so he can just BAMF! 8 spaces at all times?

For what it's worth, I was pushing for a Nightcrawler 2.0 with Swordplay, a BAMF! that lets him BAMF! after each attack, and a BAMF! dodge d20 roll. But it never got any traction. So I get where you're coming from.

Forgot the additional 5 spaces part. IMO, Nightcrawler can teleport long distances, so 8 spaces isn't crazy. Him doing 8 spaces 3 times, of course, is. So I'd go with something like this:

BAMF!
At any point before, during, or after Nightcrawler's movement, you may choose an empty space within 3 spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. When Nightcrawler starts to Bamf!, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Nightcrawler may use BAMF! up to 3 times per turn.

This is why the special attack is better off as a normal, because it fits the wording better:

TELEPORTING BARRAGE
Nightcrawler may attack any time before, during or after moving as long as he is on a space where he could end his movement. When attacking with Nightcrawler, he may attack with his normal attack up to three times.

This allows him to move 3, attack, BAMF, attack, BAMF, move 2, BAMF, attack. That seems appropriate. Make his attack 3. Other than the carry aspect, that's Nightcrawler to a T. It makes him a great addition to a Sage, Prof. X, or Apocalypse army. With that set up, a carry option is easily included as well. Which would make him Prof. X's best friend.

Sticking with the original special attack however, I'd go with:

TELEPORTING BARRAGE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
When Nightcrawler attacks with his Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, he may attack two additional times. Nightcrawler must use his Bamf! special power to move at least one space before each additional attack.

With the updated wording for both:

BAMF!
At any point before, during, or after Nightcrawler's movement, you may choose an empty space within 3 spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. When Nightcrawler starts to Bamf!, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. BAMF! may be used after each attack during Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, or a total of up to 3 times per turn.

TELEPORTING BARRAGE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
When Nightcrawler attacks with his Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, he may attack two additional times. Nightcrawler must use his Bamf! special power to move at least one space before each additional attack.

Something to that effect. Like I said, it's easier when it's just a normal attack. For wording, simplicity, and synergy wise.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by japes

Evade at 9 and defense at 4 is better than Spidey so they 160 would be a little off.

You're right, his defense could stay at 3. I was thinking Spidey's defense was at 4.

It also depends where Spidey's points are coming from. Spidey has 1 more Life, 3 more range, and a special that lowers the opponent's defense by 2 and can easily set him at height.

Either way, I believe you should decide the powers first, and the points can fit to what that comes out to. I don't believe you should stunt the character just for the sake of keeping him low, not at this range anyways. A 300 point Nightcrawler is crazy, but a 180-200 point Nightcrawler I feel is reasonable. The 1 less life, and 3 less range, no Superstrength, is already worth 40+ points less than Spider-Man.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

You're right, his defense could stay at 3. I was thinking Spidey's defense was at 4.

It also depends where Spidey's points are coming from. Spidey has 1 more Life, 3 more range, and a special that lowers the opponent's defense by 2 and can easily set him at height.

Either way, I believe you should decide the powers first, and the points can fit to what that comes out to. I don't believe you should stunt the character just for the sake of keeping him low, not at this range anyways. A 300 point Nightcrawler is crazy, but a 180-200 point Nightcrawler I feel is reasonable. The 1 less life, and 3 less range, no Superstrength, is already worth 40+ points less than Spider-Man.

For the record, I wasn't saying he should be stunted I was saying he should be higher. 180-200 sounds about where I think he should be.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Forgot the additional 5 spaces part. IMO, Nightcrawler can teleport long distances, so 8 spaces isn't crazy. Him doing 8 spaces 3 times, of course, is. So I'd go with something like this:

BAMF!
At any point before, during, or after Nightcrawler's movement, you may choose an empty space within 3 spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. When Nightcrawler starts to Bamf!, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Nightcrawler may use BAMF! up to 3 times per turn.

This is why the special attack is better off as a normal, because it fits the wording better:

TELEPORTING BARRAGE
Nightcrawler may attack any time before, during or after moving as long as he is on a space where he could end his movement. When attacking with Nightcrawler, he may attack with his normal attack up to three times.

This allows him to move 3, attack, BAMF, attack, BAMF, move 2, BAMF, attack. That seems appropriate. Make his attack 3. Other than the carry aspect, that's Nightcrawler to a T. It makes him a great addition to a Sage, Prof. X, or Apocalypse army. With that set up, a carry option is easily included as well. Which would make him Prof. X's best friend.

Sticking with the original special attack however, I'd go with:

TELEPORTING BARRAGE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
When Nightcrawler attacks with his Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, he may attack two additional times. Nightcrawler must use his Bamf! special power to move at least one space before each additional attack.

With the updated wording for both:

BAMF!
At any point before, during, or after Nightcrawler's movement, you may choose an empty space within 3 spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. When Nightcrawler starts to Bamf!, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks. BAMF! may be used after each attack during Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, or a total of up to 3 times per turn.

TELEPORTING BARRAGE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
When Nightcrawler attacks with his Teleporting Barrage Special Attack, he may attack two additional times. Nightcrawler must use his Bamf! special power to move at least one space before each additional attack.

Something to that effect. Like I said, it's easier when it's just a normal attack. For wording, simplicity, and synergy wise.

3 Bamf and a move of 6 = a move of 15 for a flyer. Overall I do like a lot of what you are saying and it does mesh with a lot of the conversations that have been had.

[Arkham]

He could keep 5 if he is allowed to move and BAMF. Even still though, a total move of 14-15 for him, I feel is appropriate. Out of all the teleporters, I think his should be the strongest and most prominent in a single turn. Since he can't teleport across the map in one go, or wherever he wants, I think covering 14-15 spaces in a turn is reasonable for him. Seeing him traverse the board, mixed in with movements, attacks, and teleports, is where I think the fun of the character will be felt while playing him.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

He could keep 5 if he is allowed to move and BAMF. Even still though, a total move of 14-15 for him, I feel is appropriate. Out of all the teleporters, I think his should be the strongest and most prominent in a single turn. Since he can't teleport across the map in one go, or wherever he wants, I think covering 14-15 spaces in a turn is reasonable for him. Seeing him traverse the board, mixed in with movements, attacks, and teleports, is where I think the fun of the character will be felt while playing him.

What he can do and what he should be able to do in heroscape to play well with others is too different things. Being able to move 14-15 spaces (without having to worry about height) is a big deal.

There are figures in the comics that can wipe someone from existance by thinking about it but in Heroscape they are given a roll. If everyone was created the way they were shown across all comics there would be a lot of un-fun.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by japes

What he can do and what he should be able to do in heroscape to play well with others is too different things. Being able to move 14-15 spaces (without having to worry about height) is a big deal.

There are figures in the comics that can wipe someone from existance by thinking about it but in Heroscape they are given a roll. If everyone was created the way they were shown across all comics there would be a lot of un-fun.

Sure. However, there's a major difference between one's movement capabilities and someone being able to instantly destroy someone. You're talking a major extreme there.

At any rate, there's a simple solution to this. Move of 5, and change his teleport distance to 2. This nets him an overall move of 11. There's ways to work it out. Movement is the lowest contributing factor, in terms of one's point value. Him not having amazing offensive capabilities, range, or something that would enable him not to be targeted non-adjacently, also make his movement not as unfun for the other person.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

There's ways to work it out.

Yes there are, which is why I brought it up as that is what I thought we were doing. As you know I typically play devils advocate here with the hopes of delicately asking questions that I know others that are not so tactful will probably be asking later. Personally I take everyone of my designs and convince myself there is something wrong with it and then look for the issue. I have to do this because I often fall in love with something and get blinded by it.

To let you know where I am coming from, the larger move comes more from a map/scenario issue. Some maps and some scenario's become unplayable with that kind of movement and it's quite possible that for one of these such scenarios we'd really like to have Nightcrawler available..

I do love the brainstorming though...It's my favorite part of the process. Without collaboration there's no reason to be on the forum.

[Tornado]

Great point about the scenario aspect japes.

Cool design A_S.

[Tornado]

My version of Freddy & Jason

Jason Vorhees

Undead
Unique Hero
Hunter
Vengeful
Medium 6

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 2
Points ???

FRIDAY THE 13TH
After any OM is revealed you may roll a 20 sided die. If the result is a 13, remove two wound markers from this card or if this figure is destroyed, remove all markers from this card and place this figure in your start zone. If it is Friday the 13th, you may roll two additional times.

CH-CH-CH-CH-HA-HA-HA-HA
Common figures who begin their movement within five clear sight spaces of Jason Voorhees must end their movement within five clear sight spaces of Jason Voorhees.

UNDEAD RESILIENCE
If Jason Voorhees receives two or more wounds from a single attack but is not destroyed, you may immediately remove up to two of those wounds.

I prefer A_S's version of Friday the 13th much better. I am torn on the second power, liking both versions.



Freddy Krueger

Undead
Unique Hero
Nightmare
Vengeful
Medium 5

Life 5
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 2
Points ???


FREDDY'S NIGHTMARE
This figure starts the game on this card. If this figure is on this card, at the end of the round you may place this figure adjacent to any opponent's figure that did not move or attack this round and immediately attack any or all adjacent figures. At the beginning of the round if Freddy is not engaged, you may place him on this card.

RAZOR GLOVE
Adjacent Unique figures roll one fewer defense die against Freddy's normal attack. Adjacent Common figures roll two fewer defense dice against Freddy's normal attack.

UNDEAD RESILIENCE
If Freddy Krueger receives two or more wounds from a single attack but is not destroyed, you may immediately remove up to two of those wounds.

Another version of Nightmare from Gardevoir:


YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE
Freddy Krueger does not start the game on the board. At the end of the round, if Freddy Krueger is on this card, you may place him on any figure's Army Card you're opponent controls that has not moved or attacked this round. Whilst Freddy Krueger is on an opponents figure's Army Card, Freddy Krueger is consdered adjacent to, and may attack any figure on that Army Card and all figure's on that Army Card cannot move and may only attack Freddy Krueger. Figure's affected by Your Worst Nightmare are always considered to be adjacent to Freddy Krueger. If all figure's on the chosen Army Card are destroyed, place Freddy Krueger on his Army Card and remove 2 Wound Markers from his Army Card.

[quozl]

I have trouble thematically in a game vs super heroes with any version of Jason with an Attack higher than 3. And Freddy's razor claws are not made of adamantium.