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Old May 3rd, 2022, 11:07 AM
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Tournament Map Feedback Thread

I wanted to start a thread to allow mapmakers a place to ask for and receive feedback on their tournament-style maps. Feel free to solicit feedback on your maps post-tournament use here, or give unsolicited feedback on maps you just played tournament games on.

Ideally, feedback will be given by those who have played tournament games on maps, but at-home games in tournament formats are equally relevant. Some theorymapping is allowed as well. Please do not solicit feedback on maps that you made but have not yet playtested.

This thread is not affiliated with WoS or BoV. Anyone is free to give feedback on maps, including but in no way limited to WoS judges. Feedback is welcome on any map, including WoS or BoV maps, but the goal is to give feedback on maps that creators are willing and especially looking to make improvements.
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Old May 3rd, 2022, 11:31 AM
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Re: Tournament Map Feedback Thread

Great idea for a thread!

I guess I'll start, really curious for thoughts on Styx + Stones after it was played in OHS last week.


Styx and Stones build instructions. It uses 1 BftU, 1 FotA, and 1 VW, with 2 random glyphs.

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Old May 3rd, 2022, 11:35 AM
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Re: Tournament Map Feedback Thread

I think this is a great, long overdue idea. For no good reason, it’s always such a hassle tracking down feedback post-tournaments.

I know before my wife and I moved and stopped hosting events I had set up a Google sheet that people could fill out at (or after) the event so that I could get feedback on the map pool and individual maps, and pass that on to each map’s creator.

EDIT: I’ll add that while I’m sure at-home game feedback is fine here, it would probably best be served in the creator’s own map thread.

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Stonework

Last edited by heroscaper2010; May 3rd, 2022 at 12:01 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2022, 11:55 AM
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Re: Tournament Map Feedback Thread

I'll get the ball rolling with some feedback on Styx and Stones.

I've played four tournament games on this map. Two on the old version, two on the new version. OHS Quad Pod game on the old version where I won by lava dunking hybrids with Werewolf Lord. Two Peoria tournaments, one on each version, where I won by rolling across the board with Heavies and Utgar Heroes. OHS Bring 2 game where I narrowly won with Varks over Zelrig.

Styx and Stones has a very unique feel to it. The combination of tight corridors with lots of LoS blockers and the central lava makes for extremely tight and sharp games. My initial reaction to this map is that it was very small, and that's been true of every version. 1x BftU maps are always a challenge, as Typhon can attest. He built the gold standard 1x BftU map in Dance of the Dryads, which is 1x BftU 1x RttFF 1x VW. Styx and Stones is a very comparable map, switching the RttFF for a FotA. Dance of the Dryads is able to work as such a small map with this set combo because it's very economical with its terrain. There are three different lanes created by the big tree and the big rock outcrop, the water on the edges of the board is made relevant by glyphs. It also has some pretty big holes floating under the level 2 24 hex dungeon tiles that make the map much bigger, for the sake of some structural stability.

My initial reaction to Styx and Stones was that it wasn't quite as successful with the challenge of feeling big with a small terrain set. The initial version had a lot of "dead hexes", lava over on sides of the board that wasn't worth stepping on. It also didn't use any of the water tiles, and only used molten lava as a visual startzone connector. The new version helped a lot with that, and the sides feel much more relevant. The ladders help speed up development on to the side hills which is great. The middle sees less immediate play as a result, but that's fine, it comes up later in games. The new version switched all the startzone connector lava for water, which prevents my lava dunk win on the old version but doesn't change much otherwise. Traversing the water that connects the startzones is not really practical.

The most exploitable part of the new version is that the 3 hex startzone area on the right side. This area of the map feels much more developed than the other startzone areas, like figures who start there are a full turn ahead of figures elsewhere. I started Krug here in my Peoria tournament game this weekend and on his second turn he was easily on lava height smashing enemies. My dad struggled with an Estivara placed here in his OHS game on this map.

A more minor point of feedback is the level 2 2 hex lava directly outside the startzone, behind the 3 hex dungeon tiles. I truly don't think people will use those hexes as they are right now, and they would use it more if it were level 1 dungeon like the tiles beneath. I think it could be good to take that level 2 lava and try to spend it somewhere else where it has higher impact.
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Old May 3rd, 2022, 12:26 PM
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Re: Tournament Map Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I think this is a great, long overdue idea.
Echo that!


Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
I know before my wife and I moved and stopped hosting events I had set up a Google sheet that people could fill out at (or after) the event so that I could get feedback on the map pool and individual maps, and pass that on to each mapís creator.
Wow, nice of you, @heroscaper2010 .
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Old May 5th, 2022, 10:11 PM
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In Which Dysole Tries To Give Map Feedback

End of the Line

There's a lot of lines and none of them have well defined end points. Unclear which one you're referring to.

Asylum

Needs doors to trap figures inside the middle and really sell the theme.

#DysoleMapReviews


Okay, let's get serious now (mostly). Map assessment is admittedly one of my weakest points in this game and a lot of my thoughts are based on feel so bear with me if I have all the precision of Venoc Viper on caffeine.

End of the Line

My game on this map was mostly a range v range battle especially after a Wyvern died in two hits to Microcorp Troopers and spiders were just annoyances after that. The start zone was a bit awkward and I think we actually had placement of the figures wrong at first. Looking at it, I guess the rule is a bit easy to remember (back 3 rows), but it's not intuitive.

The actual map played well enough. The ladder startzone area was nice for development but it'd be pretty easy to turn that area into a chokepoint if you were fast enough. I also remember thinking the ruins by the glyphs were annoying and kinda felt like they took figures over there out of the game.

The central heights not being road is probably a good thing (although I remember there was a weird LoS thing caused by some battlements when I was trying to shoot across the field; ambivalent as to whether that's a plus or a minus). At least for range it very much felt like get to those height spots as fast as possible and then shoot down. Didn't really get any melee action myself but the road did allow for spiders and Asterios to make some plays. I'm not confident but rats and range probably have a good time with this map and I think melee would need to be a bit more aggressive than they want to. Would have to actually play it out but that's my gut as I think about it.

Overall not a bad map; the pieces worked together but it felt similar to a lot of other maps I've played where I'm shooting across the center road at the other hills.


Asylum

Didn't actually play with enough figures to fit in the water start zones so didn't know they were there. Looking at the map though my first thought regarding them was "Pain". I actually liked the way the middle played a lot even if it quickly became a game of 4th and Romans hogging the whole place (my defense dice were atrocious this game as HSBs decided to have the staying power of Cutters) but my opponents still had to think carefully in this middle area about how they were going to play.

I absolutely hated the side hills though. It's way too easy for range to set up on either side and make anything with 5 move really pay the price. I lost so many Brutes to 4th and MBS and got maybe one attack in response. The "staging ground" right about the water start zones felt like a good deployment point (and we had Q10 sit there for a while firing his merciful wrist rocket before he moved to the center) but I liked it more for filling from the sides rather than up from the water. You can probably lose the battlements by their lonesomes on that whole section as melee would really like to throw an extra dude up there and the battlements make that harder.

Overall, I think the stuff I liked about this map I liked a lot and the stuff I hated about this map I hated a lot.

~Dysole, with no idea how helpful this feedback is
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Old May 5th, 2022, 10:39 PM
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Re: In Which Dysole Tries To Give Map Feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Asylum

Needs doors to trap figures inside the middle and really sell the theme.

#DysoleMapReviews
Not the Asylum definition I intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxford Languages
Asylum
The protection granted by a nation to someone who has left their native country as a political refugee.
Quote:
Asylum

Didn't actually play with enough figures to fit in the water start zones so didn't know they were there. Looking at the map though my first thought regarding them was "Pain". I actually liked the way the middle played a lot even if it quickly became a game of 4th and Romans hogging the whole place (my defense dice were atrocious this game as HSBs decided to have the staying power of Cutters) but my opponents still had to think carefully in this middle area about how they were going to play.

I absolutely hated the side hills though. It's way too easy for range to set up on either side and make anything with 5 move really pay the price. I lost so many Brutes to 4th and MBS and got maybe one attack in response. The "staging ground" right about the water start zones felt like a good deployment point (and we had Q10 sit there for a while firing his merciful wrist rocket before he moved to the center) but I liked it more for filling from the sides rather than up from the water. You can probably lose the battlements by their lonesomes on that whole section as melee would really like to throw an extra dude up there and the battlements make that harder.

Overall, I think the stuff I liked about this map I liked a lot and the stuff I hated about this map I hated a lot.

~Dysole, with no idea how helpful this feedback is
This is some great feedback! I am really glad the center played well for you. That was the part I liked the most but was also my biggest cause for curiosity.

Speaking of curiosity, do you remember which side your opponents approached the side hills from (sand or grass)? They're both pretty similar so it probably doesn't matter, but again, just curious. Regardless, I will keep an eye on this in future games and if your situation becomes a pattern I will start working on a solution.

The water start zones/battlements are intended to punish extra large armies. You can always put flying figures back there or 5 height, 5 move (or any comparable figure) can still climb over to land on the level 2 road spaces. It's not a big deal to change it but that's the idea.

Thanks again for your time and feedback!

My Maps
Stonework
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Old May 5th, 2022, 10:45 PM
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Recollection

MBS came up sand way. 4th came up grass way. MBS was able to sit on the sand off the road and shoot until there was a screen to protect him and 4th just were able to camp onto that grass hill way too easily.

~Dysole, again noting that she did have awful defense dice so sample size of one and all that
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Old May 11th, 2022, 10:57 PM
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Re: Tournament Map Feedback Thread

I'm giving some feedback on this week's OHS map, Dark Fulcrum by GameBear.



This was my first game on this map, but I've obviously played quite a few games on its parent map, Fulcrum. It's mostly the same. The primary feature of Fulcrum in my opinion is the three-hex level 3 perch directly outside the startzone, and this map keeps that. The change outside the startzone from ruins to 3 hex glaciers doesn't make the map feel much different. The change from water to shadow on the path up to the level 4 rock zone changes the map a little bit, but that water was never a major hassle. I do like the way it opens up pathing towards the top a little bit more though.

What I'm not sure about is the big stripe of shadow down the middle. Every space on that stripe either stacks Jungle and Shadow, or is a Shadow space with no adjacent height. Shadow with no adjacent height is extremely rare, and there's four hexes of it in central location on this board. Those two things make the middle of the board much safer than Fulcrum, which I don't think is needed.
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Old May 12th, 2022, 12:03 PM
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Re: Tournament Map Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I'm giving some feedback on this week's OHS map, Dark Fulcrum by GameBear.



This was my first game on this map, but I've obviously played quite a few games on its parent map, Fulcrum. It's mostly the same. The primary feature of Fulcrum in my opinion is the three-hex level 3 perch directly outside the startzone, and this map keeps that. The change outside the startzone from ruins to 3 hex glaciers doesn't make the map feel much different. The change from water to shadow on the path up to the level 4 rock zone changes the map a little bit, but that water was never a major hassle. I do like the way it opens up pathing towards the top a little bit more though.

What I'm not sure about is the big stripe of shadow down the middle. Every space on that stripe either stacks Jungle and Shadow, or is a Shadow space with no adjacent height. Shadow with no adjacent height is extremely rare, and there's four hexes of it in central location on this board. Those two things make the middle of the board much safer than Fulcrum, which I don't think is needed.
I would like to start off by explaining that I am by no means a map expert, but I will happily share my opinions! I agree with Vegie about the even ground shadow. It is very rare to have shadow not next to height. However, I think I prefer the overall affect the middle strip of shadow plus jungle has on the map over the original. This is due to the level 5 single perches on the two sides of the board. I really do not like single hex perches, especially those that allow a 7 range figure to be on the highest point of the board and to have a threat range that reaches half of a start zone. The original Fulcrum has this same issue, so I like how the middle becomes stronger against range due to the shadow and jungle, as well as the removal of water for ease of access to those top points. In general I like the addition of shadow on this map. My other comment is more of a pet peeve, I strongly dislike maps that have water in the start zone. this map takes a third of your start zone and turns it into water. Maps can do this well, but I am not sold on this particular implementation. Hopefully this does not come off as to harsh, I am only mentioning the issues I had with the map. I did enjoy playing on the map, and its flaws do not out weigh its good points.
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Old May 12th, 2022, 03:47 PM
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Dark Fulcrum

Vegie and KoL, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts! Both reports are great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightOfLight View Post
I strongly dislike maps that have water in the start zone. this map takes a third of your start zone and turns it into water. Maps can do this well, but I am not sold on this particular implementation.
You are not alone in disliking watery start zones. Unfortunately, you are stuck with it on this map, for two reasons: 1) I like putting water in start zones; and 2) all the available terrain is being used. I am interested in hearing what aspects of this implementation bother you most, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
What I'm not sure about is the big stripe of shadow down the middle.
That's a good observation. I do want the middle to be safer than it was on the original Fulcrum, but if the shadow spaces not adjacent to height prove to be an issue, those are easy to relocate. Hopefully more players in the current OHS season will weigh in with their experiences.

Thanks, both of you.
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Old May 13th, 2022, 09:07 PM
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Re: Dark Fulcrum

[quote=GameBear;2516113]Vegie and KoL, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts! Both reports are great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightOfLight View Post
I strongly dislike maps that have water in the start zone. this map takes a third of your start zone and turns it into water. Maps can do this well, but I am not sold on this particular implementation.
You are not alone in disliking watery start zones. Unfortunately, you are stuck with it on this map, for two reasons: 1) I like putting water in start zones; and 2) all the available terrain is being used. I am interested in hearing what aspects of this implementation bother you most, though.

Thatís fair, I guess for me, I donít like how it limits 5 move non-flying figures. Losing a point of movement because of water just doesnít feel good to me. I understand it is probably unavoidable given the terrain, so itís not a deal breaker for me. This particular implementation has been growing on my the more I look at it, as the majority of the spaces still have a move that places them adjacent to jungle or on shadow. The only other small thing regarding the water that bothers me is when 2 tiles are adjacent, forcing you to take slightly less advantageous pathing to get to where you want to go.
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