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  #5089  
Old October 14th, 2016, 10:57 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Hey, @Dignan --

Are you anywhere near a verdict on High Ways or the Highway?
Being the only other active judge here, your vote on it would put the old era to rest, so to speak. @happyjosiah 's nomination for Spineback Ridge could go into the new iteration.
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  #5090  
Old October 14th, 2016, 11:36 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by UtahScott View Post
Hey, @Dignan --

Are you anywhere near a verdict on High Ways or the Highway?
Being the only other active judge here, your vote on it would put the old era to rest, so to speak. @happyjosiah 's nomination for Spineback Ridge could go into the new iteration.
Yeah, I've played almost enough games on that one to make a verdict. I would want to dust it back off and get in another handful. Since it isn't a clear yes or no, it takes a little more time on my end. But I could get a review closed out in short order.

Of course, that would leave the map in limbo as far as the BoV is concerned. Whatever new system rolls out in it's place (or alongside, whatever) doesn't need the BoV to tie up loose ends.

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  #5091  
Old October 14th, 2016, 11:49 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Dignan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahScott View Post
Hey, @Dignan --

Are you anywhere near a verdict on High Ways or the Highway?
Being the only other active judge here, your vote on it would put the old era to rest, so to speak. @happyjosiah 's nomination for Spineback Ridge could go into the new iteration.
Yeah, I've played almost enough games on that one to make a verdict. I would want to dust it back off and get in another handful. Since it isn't a clear yes or no, it takes a little more time on my end. But I could get a review closed out in short order.

Of course, that would leave the map in limbo as far as the BoV is concerned. Whatever new system rolls out in it's place (or alongside, whatever) doesn't need the BoV to tie up loose ends.
Okay, @mad_wookiee's also still active onsite, but hasn't publically posted in the BoV forums for almost 2.5 years now. I recall a long discussion here years ago (from @R˙chean ?) that with the 75% approval threshold, maps could still be inducted with a minimum of three judges, assuming all three vote to induct. He didn't explore less than three active judges as a possibility at the time, IIRC...
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  #5092  
Old October 15th, 2016, 03:32 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Quote:
we don't have a proper reply-all function
Is there any way to update the site to incorporate this? Because I could see this being a very helpful tool.
Not an easy way, no, unfortunately. Otherwise, we'd have just, you know, done it by now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
... your suggestion above seems somewhat in line bus also somewhat at odds with the reason you left. Anyway, although your suggestion above seems great, I would also like to see as much public reviews as possible, ...
If I'm understanding you, then you're wrestling over the issue of private vs public. It's a tough call. As I said, you can certainly try (or lobby for the group to try) to do all its business in public if you like. It's entirely possible. It's just that some things may be more difficult.

I'm a firm believer in balance and paradox. I personally think you need to strike a balance between the public and the private. Too much of either is bad. You need both, at once.

But that's just me.

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And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
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  #5093  
Old October 19th, 2016, 10:08 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

EDIT - Nevermind, turns out TREX, Tiranx, and Sir Heroscape are starting something. Hopefully it will work out well for them.

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  #5094  
Old October 20th, 2016, 08:54 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Very excited to see some progress here. I don't care what the label or what the system is, I would just love to see some of these great maps that have never hit the table at GenCon finally get their due.

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  #5095  
Old October 20th, 2016, 09:03 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Dignan View Post
The only thing standing in the way of getting this going again is the process that the BoV embodies. It's not simply a collection of people submitting playtest results of a play they had on a map. Every judge needs to have a solid understanding of tournament Heroscape and (more importantly) the means to play tournament style games consistently and frequently.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to fill these requirements. Often, people are able to join the BoV and have an initial frenzy of activity. But it is very difficult to sustain. I consider myself lucky (and an extreme outlier) to have been able to play tournament type Heroscape games every Thursday for the last decade against a top tier player. Even with my unusual situation, the grind of testing can be difficult to sustain.

We've noticed the gradual decline of this process over the years I've been involved. At first the pool of candidates was large and judges were extremely eager to join the ranks. As time has worn on, judges have had shorter and shorter stays with diminishing participation.

Realistically, I don't see the community supporting the process that is the BoV again. That's not to say that a process for evaluating tournament maps should be abandoned, but that this process might not be sustainable. IMO, we probably need to create a new project where the burdens of testing can be shared out among a larger group for overall review, instead of depending on a smaller group of people to devote a large amount of time for review.
So you would say the Wargrounds of Scape is not quite there since it still depends on a core set of judges, right?
I will say that the structure of WoS is quite a bit more flexible than that of the BoV. The major difference: it doesn't depend on a certain number of judges getting their reviews in before a map can advance. That was the major bottleneck of the BoV, and the structure of WoS solved that problem.

So if you fine folks decide to revive the BoV (and I hugely support the endeavor!!!), I would recommend thoroughly revamping its rules/structure, along the lines of the WoS. I think @dok and I, as the two major forces in the WoS, would be absolutely fine with you borrowing/lifting anything from the WoS's structure that you like.
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  #5096  
Old October 20th, 2016, 09:05 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Xotli View Post
Okay, ANAICT Stygian Rift and Dance of the Dryads are the only two actual BoV maps I was missing, because they didn't conform to the standard naming convention. I've corrected those.
Xotli, thank you! (Especially both of those are mine.)
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  #5097  
Old October 20th, 2016, 09:08 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Just finished reading this thread.... The Rotten Tomatoes approach does sound as if it might have some advantages too...
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  #5098  
Old October 20th, 2016, 09:46 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I would be no fan of a system that counted the noses of reviews from whomever, and performed calculations to pass or fail a map. As a tournament director, I would look elsewhere. To the extent that that's what some of you mean by "Rotten Tomatoes system," I'd have, as a tournament director, little interest.

Whatever the new system, the testing must be rigorous. A successful system must pressure-test the maps. In the C3V we use the public to help with playtesting but we sure as heck have a process for rigorously collecting and evaluating those tests, and *we* are the deciders, not the playtesters. That must be honored, in a way that Rotten Tomatoes does not.

I would have thought that people eager to take on the role of testing might find room here or in the WoS to replace inactive judges, and perhaps (if here) tweak the rules to help with the problem of judges who become inactive. I agree with those who have suggested that, within the limits of my earlier comment about tweaking the rules.

The fact is, participating in these projects can be difficult. Testing is hard and time consuming. In most real-world projects staffed by volunteers, it is to be expected that there will be turnover as some people move on and are replaced by others. That doesn't (necessarily) mean there's a structural problem, it just means it's time to find new people. You express deep gratitude to those who have left for their contributions when they were there, and you move on. Don't be hasty about tearing everything down & starting at Square 1, is my suggestion.

There are eager beaver volunteers for the BoV now? They are worthy candidates for the important responsibility? Give them the keys, let them tweak the rules if they want, and move on.

Finally, I will observe that I know @mad_wookiee , and he's a good guy. If he thought that his name as a "voter" on the BoV was causing the project to suffer, he would (I think) be disappointed if he wasn't just taken off. Who would want the death of the project as a legacy? So, @Dignan , I think it would be ok if you - as the de facto leader here - agreed to help by simply removing the names of the inactive judges. We all appreciate their input, we think the world of them, we are glad they contributed what they could. Tag them, give them a week or whatever to discuss other options, then give them "emeritus" status and move forward.

My 2 cents. I'm trying to respond to a few different things here, and if you think my post isn't directly responding to your point, dear reader, it's because it probably wasn't.

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  #5099  
Old October 20th, 2016, 01:29 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I would be no fan of a system that counted the noses of reviews from whomever, and performed calculations to pass or fail a map. As a tournament director, I would look elsewhere. To the extent that that's what some of you mean by "Rotten Tomatoes system," I'd have, as a tournament director, little interest.
First off I agree with most of what you said about not just dumping all this and starting over.

As to the above, I was under the assumption that like rotten tomatoes there would be both scores. The professionals (the score that you'd likely use for tournaments) and the "general public" which would be the rest.

You'd have the hard score that would be strictly from a competitive view but for those maps that don't quite make the cut you'd still have a score for more casual games. For instance if a map missed the cut due to one issue like say a certain double based figure didn't fit somewhere on the map but other than that it was a great map that everyone enjoyed, was a sturdy build, and as long as you didn't play with that figure it would be great then a casual player could see that high rating...read the "professional" reviews and see the downside and realize that situation doesn't fit them so hey...I think I'll give this one a shot.

That's sort of what I thought of when I saw the suggestion. I'm not a competitive player but I do like to make sure I don't play a map that's way unfair to one side.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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  #5100  
Old October 21st, 2016, 01:03 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
I would be no fan of a system that counted the noses of reviews from whomever, and performed calculations to pass or fail a map. As a tournament director, I would look elsewhere. To the extent that that's what some of you mean by "Rotten Tomatoes system," I'd have, as a tournament director, little interest.
First off I agree with most of what you said about not just dumping all this and starting over.

As to the above, I was under the assumption that like rotten tomatoes there would be both scores. The professionals (the score that you'd likely use for tournaments) and the "general public" which would be the rest.

You'd have the hard score that would be strictly from a competitive view but for those maps that don't quite make the cut you'd still have a score for more casual games. For instance if a map missed the cut due to one issue like say a certain double based figure didn't fit somewhere on the map but other than that it was a great map that everyone enjoyed, was a sturdy build, and as long as you didn't play with that figure it would be great then a casual player could see that high rating...read the "professional" reviews and see the downside and realize that situation doesn't fit them so hey...I think I'll give this one a shot.

That's sort of what I thought of when I saw the suggestion. I'm not a competitive player but I do like to make sure I don't play a map that's way unfair to one side.
japes is correct. The system I was suggesting would essentially be a BoV with a more public side. In the end, there would be two scores, and when a tournament director wants to find a map from the thread, all they would need to do is look at the ones with a "passing" grade, whatever that grade ends up being. It wouldn't have to be a set percentage or number - it could just be, like the BoV now, that the required amount of judges said "Yeah, that's the best of the best."

Personally, as a one time tournament director, I would love to see more of the public's opinion on maps. I love what the BoV does and don't want to diminish it at all, but maps can get bogged down in the process. It's what happens. But if a map gets nominated, the public sees it, and some reviews come in from them, then as a tournament director that tells me that this map looks fun, that people want to play on it, and are willing to take time to do so and then actually post feedback on it. That says a lot about a map to me. Of course, I'll want more of a "professional" opinion on it, and that's where the official judges would come in. But if the map hasn't made it that far in the process yet, then those early reviews would be a huge help. If I need more of an opinion, I'll play on it myself (which I'll always do cause I personally won't put a map in a tournament that I haven't played on myself to ensure that it works, no matter where it comes from).

Another (IMO) great potential aspect to allowing the public to participate is that I feel it would increase interest. Making and submitting maps is great, but having watched this thread for years I feel like there have been many times where people have come in and asked what they could do to help, and the answer was basically "Submit a great map and hope for a good verdict to come eventually." There's been no chance for participation, and I see a chance to improve that. In the C3V there is public playtesting. And yes, it is ultimately up to the Inner Sanctum to decide what happens with a design, but at least the public feels like they get to participate and help influence it. (Or at least they should.) I don't see why it can't be the same here, and why there can't be a system put in place to allow anyone to come in, run tests, and see the fruit of their efforts. Posting in the mapmaker's thread works, posting here works, but if there was a place where their reviews were compiled and noted, I feel like that would be a huge motivator for people to want to get involved.

Which brings me to another big point of public participation. As Dad_Scaper noted, there is always turnover in volunteer projects. That's unavoidable. And I think that this kind of public participation will help with that, in that these "unprofessional" reviewers will be able to replace the "professionals" who retire. This way, rather than selecting someone who wants to help but has minimal experience, the judges will be able to select someone who has proved him/herself. It's a way for people to be able to practice and get better and reviewing maps and really getting to learn what makes great maps great. A kind of apprenticeship, if you will. Especially because, by having a go-to place for them to post reviews, they'll be able to share insights, compare reviews, and maybe learn some things that they can do better. Then, when they're inducted as a judge, they'll have a whole history of learning and improving evident to the community, and they'll be able to put more trust into their decisions. This is particularly important to me because I feel that the judges need to be people whose opinions are respected. If I don't trust that a person is great at judging a map, I won't be using their maps or their project's maps no matter how shiny the badge is, at least not for a tournament.

Obviously, I'm a huge advocate of allowing public participation. I don't think the BoV is bad, however, and I don't think it needs an overhaul. But as there is already going to be a complete change in staffing, I don't see why this can't be used as an opportunity to shift some gears and make things better (subjectively, of course - some people may see the process perfect as-is, and that's okay too). This is all my opinion and theory on what would help make a good system better, but it's just my opinion and is only to be taken as the couple cents that it's worth. In the end, I just want to see map-making encouraged again, and will support whatever way that happens.

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Last edited by BiggaBullfrog; October 21st, 2016 at 01:04 AM. Reason: Maybe someday I'll learn when to just stop typing...
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