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  #3397  
Old May 17th, 2019, 11:38 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Yeah, I want to find fault with the four powers as well, but each one is simple, thematic, and necessary, so I don't feel like I should.

I don't really like Banshee as a class, though. I'd make her a Terror as well, and then change the SA to read "additional Terror" or just simply make it Attack 1+ Special.

EDIT: Do you have a picture of them all together? I'm wondering specifically how that (completely unthematic but also completely trope-y) lipstick looks in person.

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  #3398  
Old May 18th, 2019, 03:18 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by quozl View Post
Nice! One question: Is the Call of Aldorn move supposed to be 6 spaces for each undead terror you move?
Yes, they each get to move 6 spaces. I'll change the wording to "up to 6 spaces each."
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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I'm not usually a fan of 4 powers either, but they're all part of the design here. On the other hand, why does everything have to hit hard? Why can't there be some units that just have lower stats?
Not everything hits hard. The Specters this design synergizes with don't hit too hard, there's just a lot of them. Sure this has the potential to hit hard, but it's not always possible to set up the +4 when you have to reach your target first, and moving the specters lowers your move. Interestingly, it's easier to get +4 when you're loosing (don't have map control) because you don't have to move as far to engage an enemy who has almost reached your startzone.

Last edited by Leaf_It; May 18th, 2019 at 04:03 AM.
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  #3399  
Old May 20th, 2019, 04:29 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


The next Pathfinder set releasing in a couple of days includes a sculpt for an undead samurai, which I found to be pretty inspiring. This is the design that I found to be the most compelling, given that it rewards taking the samurai together in a unique way.

Honor Beyond Death gives a new dimension to samurai builds, letting you tie down an important figure for longer or ensure that you'll be able to retain a glyph for the entire round. One of the most disappointing things about the samurai is how devastating one defense whiff can be, and these guys help ease that pain somewhat (although not entirely).

Unstoppable is where they really find their value, though. It does require for them to be Uncommon despite technically only having 1 life (I tried common variants earlier, but this was the most straightforward way of removing potential memory problems if a player chose to take more than three of these guys at a time), but in practice you'll probably only want to take 1-2 of these guys anyway. It's easier than expected to overload on these guys, as they do experience diminishing returns when you take more than a handful (and the other samurai are already decently expensive on their own).

Unstoppable is also balanced by mediocre stats. I've seen concerns before about making a literally unstoppable undead armada, but 5 move with 1 attack of 3 dice is pretty pitiful (only the Izumi with one remaining member have a weaker turn), so they really serve more as defenders. There is the possibility of one having a great last stand in clean-up, but they're still almost always the weakest offensive option in a samurai build.

I am concerned about rules integration, since I did make some changes from the Ebon Armor's Eternal War when writing Honor Beyond Death (Eternal War, for reference, specifies normal/special/leaving engagement attacks, while HBD can also work against special powers but triggers immediately). I ran into a slight question with Tor-Kul-Na's Trample Stomp, but both players quickly agreed on the interpretation that the living samurai can be stomped, but then TKN has to stop his movement once the Shinda Samurai is placed in that spot. So long as there aren't more rules gray areas that I'm missing, I'd like to continue with this direction if possible.
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  #3400  
Old May 20th, 2019, 09:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'm not a huge fan of how Honor Beyond Death interacts with powers like Zombies Rise Again, but we already crossed that Bridge with the Ebon Armor, so you get a pass there.

I'm not thrilled with Unstoppable. I don't like the memory mechanic there, though the fact that they're Uncommon makes it somewhat palatable (and I can't see any other reason not to make them Common). I would rather you make it more direct: just have them die after the round regardless. Then no memory needed, and could be Common. They would still fulfill their most important function, locking units down. Maybe allow the player to also move all unrevealed Order Markers on the Samurai card to it, though you'd want to keep them Uncommon for that.
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  #3401  
Old May 20th, 2019, 11:32 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I'm not a huge fan of how Honor Beyond Death interacts with powers like Zombies Rise Again, but we already crossed that Bridge with the Ebon Armor, so you get a pass there.

I'm not thrilled with Unstoppable. I don't like the memory mechanic there, though the fact that they're Uncommon makes it somewhat palatable (and I can't see any other reason not to make them Common). I would rather you make it more direct: just have them die after the round regardless. Then no memory needed, and could be Common. They would still fulfill their most important function, locking units down. Maybe allow the player to also move all unrevealed Order Markers on the Samurai card to it, though you'd want to keep them Uncommon for that.
That's a very interesting idea for Unstoppable. In my games, they've rarely lasted past the round anyway unless they're placed poorly, and I was quite fond of the Common angle for them. I don't think moving Order Markers would be necessary, even keeping them Uncommon, but I do really like that simplification.

My only problem with that suggestion is that attacking them becomes pointless if you can't kill them and they die at the end of the round anyway, so Counterstrike would serve no purpose in the design and would just be removed. They can still force the opponent to take a leaving engagement strike or be a sitting duck for the round, of course, but I liked the theme that they have a slightly weaker form of Counterstrike on them.
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  #3402  
Old May 20th, 2019, 11:48 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I don't think Banshee works as a class since the Banshees of Durgeth Swamp aren't classed as Banshees. Though to make her more Banshee-like you could give her Stealth Flying over the Levitation/Phantom Walk combo -- would help set her apart as more powerful than the Specters as well, possibly (not that I'm opposed to the Levitation/Phantom Walk, just an idea). 4 Defense seems a tad high for a spirit, I think 3 would be better, though it's not something I'd draw a hard line on. I do like the mechanic for Call of Aldorn, with the give/take for the movement bonding.

That all said, the unit as a whole doesn't really grab my attention. I like Call of Aldorn but otherwise it just strikes me as a hero that boosts the Specters just for the sake of boosting them, and they don't strike me as a squad that needs the boosting. I guess the added Aldorn theme is nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That name is odd, meaning Samurai That Died, which doesn't really have an undead feel to it at all. Maybe Seishin? It's more of an individual spiritual essence/power/aura that seems more appropriate to carry a warrior on beyond death.

Honestly, though, I don't really see why these are worth drafting. They kind of hold a line after a Samurai dies, but if that's the whole point I think Scytale's suggestion of just making them common and then having them die at the end of the round. If they're supposed to provide any kind of offensive or board control support (beyond occupying the specific space a samurai died on) then they're always going to fall flat. If they're common, it's a little bit better, but I'd never want to juggle Uncommon Heroes with 1 Life and one attack of 3 even if they're guaranteed to at least survive the round (though that is nice). I also really don't like the memory mechanic, even if they're uncommon (although I do like the general idea for Unstoppable). That still means you can have enough of them on the board that having to remember how many were "killed" on the first turn will be too much for the game, IMO.
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  #3403  
Old May 21st, 2019, 02:42 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
That name is odd, meaning Samurai That Died, which doesn't really have an undead feel to it at all. Maybe Seishin? It's more of an individual spiritual essence/power/aura that seems more appropriate to carry a warrior on beyond death.

Honestly, though, I don't really see why these are worth drafting. They kind of hold a line after a Samurai dies, but if that's the whole point I think Scytale's suggestion of just making them common and then having them die at the end of the round. If they're supposed to provide any kind of offensive or board control support (beyond occupying the specific space a samurai died on) then they're always going to fall flat. If they're common, it's a little bit better, but I'd never want to juggle Uncommon Heroes with 1 Life and one attack of 3 even if they're guaranteed to at least survive the round (though that is nice). I also really don't like the memory mechanic, even if they're uncommon (although I do like the general idea for Unstoppable). That still means you can have enough of them on the board that having to remember how many were "killed" on the first turn will be too much for the game, IMO.
Many thanks for the name suggestions. I have no understanding of Japanese, so I'm perfectly content with changing it to be more fitting. Would Seishin or Seishin Samurai be better as a name?

Beyond maintaining board control, which is noticeable on chokepoints and other areas that you can effectively tie an area down, the best use of them is to keep an attacker engaged for the rest of the round. They work particularly well with the Tagawa Samurai Archers, who really can benefit from tying down a figure to buy some time to gain height or break through defense with their 2 attack from afar. They of course have some other uses, too, like securing glyphs for longer if you can reach them or giving you a second chance at Counterstrike. Of course, providing an option below 60 points is also beneficial to the samurai builds, although I think that two of them can also find good value at 70 points. They do lack offensive capabilities, but they still provide new options and strategies in samurai armies that make them worth considering.

I don't see the memory mechanic that you're referring to. Each Uncommon Hero is supposed to have its own card with a sticker corresponding to the base of the figure, so simply removing each figure with a wound on its card at the end of the each round hasn't posed any issues so far.

Having a 35 point Uncommon Hero with 1 life does buck a lot of trends (most of my drafts were Common because it felt off), but the design has some things baked into it that make this more palatable. Unstoppable ensures that your Order Markers on one of them will never be wasted (especially since you get to control which ones are placed where on the board when you lose samurai), although they are not intended to be strong or desirable turns. As-is, I think that drafting more than three of these guys at a time is probably a mistake in most games, so while it's theoretically possible to take 4 or more of them at a time, it's like most official Uncommon designs where you don't really want to. You're not really juggling taking turns with them unless you've reached the endgame, either, at which point you can safely load your OMs on one undead samurai to try and maximize its usefulness for the round.
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  #3404  
Old May 21st, 2019, 09:35 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That's a very interesting idea for Unstoppable. In my games, they've rarely lasted past the round anyway unless they're placed poorly, and I was quite fond of the Common angle for them. I don't think moving Order Markers would be necessary, even keeping them Uncommon, but I do really like that simplification.

My only problem with that suggestion is that attacking them becomes pointless if you can't kill them and they die at the end of the round anyway, so Counterstrike would serve no purpose in the design and would just be removed. They can still force the opponent to take a leaving engagement strike or be a sitting duck for the round, of course, but I liked the theme that they have a slightly weaker form of Counterstrike on them.
It seems like you can solve all your troubles by dropping Unstoppable (but still die at the end of the round) and giving them 5 Defense. Yes, they can then die, but they're kinda tough, but have some fear in fighting them due to Counterstrike, which seems like a waste of a risk if they are just going die at the end of the round anyway. If they are almost never worth order markers anyway, just focus on what they do.
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  #3405  
Old May 21st, 2019, 10:43 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Many thanks for the name suggestions. I have no understanding of Japanese, so I'm perfectly content with changing it to be more fitting. Would Seishin or Seishin Samurai be better as a name?

Beyond maintaining board control, which is noticeable on chokepoints and other areas that you can effectively tie an area down, the best use of them is to keep an attacker engaged for the rest of the round. They work particularly well with the Tagawa Samurai Archers, who really can benefit from tying down a figure to buy some time to gain height or break through defense with their 2 attack from afar. They of course have some other uses, too, like securing glyphs for longer if you can reach them or giving you a second chance at Counterstrike. Of course, providing an option below 60 points is also beneficial to the samurai builds, although I think that two of them can also find good value at 70 points. They do lack offensive capabilities, but they still provide new options and strategies in samurai armies that make them worth considering.

I don't see the memory mechanic that you're referring to. Each Uncommon Hero is supposed to have its own card with a sticker corresponding to the base of the figure, so simply removing each figure with a wound on its card at the end of the each round hasn't posed any issues so far.

Having a 35 point Uncommon Hero with 1 life does buck a lot of trends (most of my drafts were Common because it felt off), but the design has some things baked into it that make this more palatable. Unstoppable ensures that your Order Markers on one of them will never be wasted (especially since you get to control which ones are placed where on the board when you lose samurai), although they are not intended to be strong or desirable turns. As-is, I think that drafting more than three of these guys at a time is probably a mistake in most games, so while it's theoretically possible to take 4 or more of them at a time, it's like most official Uncommon designs where you don't really want to. You're not really juggling taking turns with them unless you've reached the endgame, either, at which point you can safely load your OMs on one undead samurai to try and maximize its usefulness for the round.
I think Seishin Samurai would be fine.

Ah, I hadn't considered the "just put a wound marker on the card" approach since 1 life figures so rarely need wound markers. My bad, I withdraw that objection (though I do again like Scytale's above suggestion and just leaning into the common vein).

I really don't care about a 35 point Uncommon Hero with 1 life -- that's fine and is bucking no trends for me. I just don't think that, as they are on the card presently, they'll ever be worth 35 points. Juggling OMs is more than just "will this guy be alive?" It's also "will this guy be in a spot on the board that's worth putting OMs on to make him relevant to the battle especially when my opponent will be moving as well," and there is very little reward for taking a turn with them. That's another reason I like Scytale's suggestion to focus on what they do, make them more defensive (probably even drop the attack to 2), and probably drop the points to 20 (especially if, like you said, they are not intended to be strong or desirable turns -- why encourage turn-taking with them at all then?).
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  #3406  
Old May 21st, 2019, 01:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
It seems like you can solve all your troubles by dropping Unstoppable (but still die at the end of the round) and giving them 5 Defense. Yes, they can then die, but they're kinda tough, but have some fear in fighting them due to Counterstrike, which seems like a waste of a risk if they are just going die at the end of the round anyway. If they are almost never worth order markers anyway, just focus on what they do.
I'm not quite sure how I like both letting them be killed and automatically removing them at the end of each round. Unstoppable is an easy highlight of their current playstyle, but I'm not opposed to keeping it to Unique designs if they still play the same. My gut says that this change is a lot weaker in terms of tying anything down (especially against range), but the fact that attacking the 5 defense is unnecessary should keep some potency. I'll run a game with it and see if it significantly changes how the design plays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
I think Seishin Samurai would be fine.

Ah, I hadn't considered the "just put a wound marker on the card" approach since 1 life figures so rarely need wound markers. My bad, I withdraw that objection (though I do again like Scytale's above suggestion and just leaning into the common vein).

I really don't care about a 35 point Uncommon Hero with 1 life -- that's fine and is bucking no trends for me. I just don't think that, as they are on the card presently, they'll ever be worth 35 points. Juggling OMs is more than just "will this guy be alive?" It's also "will this guy be in a spot on the board that's worth putting OMs on to make him relevant to the battle especially when my opponent will be moving as well," and there is very little reward for taking a turn with them. That's another reason I like Scytale's suggestion to focus on what they do, make them more defensive (probably even drop the attack to 2), and probably drop the points to 20 (especially if, like you said, they are not intended to be strong or desirable turns -- why encourage turn-taking with them at all then?).
Thanks. I'll change the name to Seishin Samurai on my next pass through the card.

The placement of these guys is easier than it looks since you get to choose which ones replace which samurai on the battlefield. Of course, they're significantly weaker against ranged armies that can stay more than 6 spaces away, but that's a common theme amongst the samurai anyway. That said, I don't think that this is a design that wants OMs on it in the first place, since their role is to tie down areas or attackers. That's primarily what I mean by juggling OMs on them not really posing an issue in practice.

I don't mind dropping their attack to 2 since it is so rarely used, but I'm hesitant to drop the points significantly lower. 35 feels like a bit of a sweetspot to me where they aren't an auto-include in samurai armies, but you can make some fun builds by sacrificing other parts to include them or reach odd point totals. There's also the high survivability (either Unstoppable or 5 defense) to consider, even if there are significant drawbacks to using them. I figured that going with a mediocre 3/3 was a nice way of keeping the cost of 35 reasonable on both ends, and it's a slight consolation if you do come to the point of taking a turn with them.
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  #3407  
Old May 24th, 2019, 07:28 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



Here’s a new version of Clayton. Simplified based on feedback received in here and on my customs thread. What do you guys think?
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  #3408  
Old May 24th, 2019, 07:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Not sure that 120 is still the right price, since this version has less activations per round.

I do really like that it still keeps the big shootout feel without being a complicated card.

customs/maps/c3v/sov

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