The Book of Marro Dividers

[Porkins]

So, I gather from this thread that Marro Dividers do not get to roll for Cell Divide after being destroyed by instant kill attacks such as Chomp, Stare of Stone, Helm of Mitonsoul, Acid Breath, etc.

To me the card is not clear on this point. Is it because an instant kill attack is not considered a "wound" as the card states? If this is not correct, what part of the language on the card indicates that the Divider cannot roll for Cell Divide after being destroyed by these attacks?

Also, what about Cyprien's Life Drain? To roll for Cell Divide or not to roll?

[fomox]

Originally Posted by Porkins

So, I gather from this thread that Marro Dividers do not get to roll for Cell Divide after being destroyed by instant kill attacks such as Chomp, Stare of Stone, Helm of Mitonsoul, Acid Breath, etc.

To me the card is not clear on this point. Is it because an instant kill attack is not considered a "wound" as the card states? If this is not correct, what part of the language on the card indicates that the Divider cannot roll for Cell Divide after being destroyed by these attacks?

Also, what about Cyprien's Life Drain? To roll for Cell Divide or not to roll?

I think you're referring to Chilling Touch, which does inflict wounds, but is not a "Normal or Special Attack", so the dividers cannot roll for Cell Divide in this case.

(Chilling touch is a special power, but not a special attack. To be a special attack, it has to have "Special Attack" in the title.)

You are also correct that they don't get to roll for it in those other cases (Chomp, etc). In those cases, they are still not special attacks. In addition, those powers don't cause wounds, so that's another reason that the Dividers couldn't cell divide.

[ProtoFury]

Originally Posted by fomox

You are also correct that they don't get to roll for it in those other cases (Chomp, etc). In those cases, they are still not special attacks. In addition, those powers don't cause wounds, so that's another reason that the Dividers couldn't cell divide.

If I may tack onto this, since this came up in one of my gams last week, you don't get to roll for the Glyph of Wannock either. Just because the figure gets a wound automatically doesn't mean you get to roll for it. Someone may have already covered this, but I figured that I may as well clarify here too for those who missed it or didn't realize that on their own.

[dok]

I want to follow up my previous post here about Cell Divide and Lodin/Hive Supremacy, and come to a more concrete conclusion about exactly how valuable SBN's bonus is when playing dividers.

Normally, every killing shot (i.e. an attack or special attack that inflicts a wound on a divider) kills the Divider 80% of the time, and creates a divider 20% of the time. This means that, on average, each killing shot kills .6 dividers. Inverting this means that each divider survives, on average, 1.67 killshots.

Having SBN in your army changes those ratios to 75%/25%, which pushes the average down to .5 dividers killed per killshot. This means each divider survives, on average, 2 killshots.

This means that adding SBN yields a (2-1.67)/1.67 = 20% increase in survivability for each divider. So, in the basic analysis, Hive Supremacy is worth 20% * 50 points = 10 points per squad.

So, if you add SBN to an army with 3 squads of dividers (and no other marro) Hive Supremacy is worth 30 points. If you have 6 squads of dividers, Hive supremacy is worth 60 points.

Note that this analysis does not consider the tactical effects that can make cell divide more or less valuable, depending on the situation. Keeping/replicating dividers in key choke points or on glyphs can be far more valuable than a simple points analysis would make you think. On the other hand, cramped spaces or instakill powers will reduce the efficiency of cell divide.

[fomox]

Originally Posted by dok

I want to follow up my previous post here about Cell Divide and Lodin/Hive Supremacy, and come to a more concrete conclusion about exactly how valuable SBN's bonus is when playing dividers....

I find the statistical properties of cell divide pretty interesting, and appreciate your posts, dok.

On the empirical side: I've been playtesting these guys a fair amount, mostly SBN and dividers x7. I go entire games with only 2 or 3 successful cell divide rolls (all losses). That seems really unlucky to me. Other times it seems to work 9-12 times, and they win. It really seems to snowball. Each failed roll means fewer tries at additional dividing, and each successful roll provides more opportunities for successful rolls.

I've also kept track of how often SBN makes a difference. It happens maybe once or twice a game. But the tactical value is often pretty high.

[dok]

Originally Posted by fomox

On the empirical side: I've been playtesting these guys a fair amount, mostly SBN and dividers x7.

At that extreme, with SBN and dividers x7, you're getting, on average, about 70 points of value out of SBN's Hive Supremacy power. As I sort of stated in my earlier post, SBN's value to the dividers, even 21 of them, still doesn't justify his full cost. But if you play 7 squads of dividers, then you only have to value SBN's contribution as a flying beatstick as being worth 90 points or so in order to want him in your army.

Originally Posted by fomox

I go entire games with only 2 or 3 successful cell divide rolls (all losses). That seems really unlucky to me. Other times it seems to work 9-12 times, and they win. It really seems to snowball. Each failed roll means fewer tries at additional dividing, and each successful roll provides more opportunities for successful rolls.

Certainly true. With 21 dividers and SBN, you would expect a very high number of successful divides - roughly 10-11, on average, before you ran out of dividers.

Originally Posted by fomox

I've also kept track of how often SBN makes a difference. It happens maybe once or twice a game. But the tactical value is often pretty high.

It should be a pretty low number - rarely more than 2 per game, like you say. But to accurately reflect SBN's value, you also have to count every 17+ that is rolled by a divider that is only on the board because of an earlier roll of 16 by a SBN-boosted divider.

[playa1]

It's been a long thread so far, but I wanted to add my experience and also wanted to make an original contribution.

I have read a number of analysis comments here which are very good, and have also read a number of positive experiences. Theoryscape reigns so far even though these guys have been out for NHSD and a number of tourneys.

I think people have ignored some obvious advantages. I played one game against a player who took one squad of dividers, but I think they are very much worth their weight in points, and here's why: Unlike Drones which use their ability on your order marker, dividers use their ability on the opponent's order marker. This is HUGE. When I considered attacking my opponent, I had to think, . . . "damn, what if he divides. That would more than suck in this instance!" I needed to eliminate the opponent from the position to make sure I could get a good soul devour opportunity the next turn. The dividers really psyched me out.

It did not matter how often they divide and how much their attack and defense was. The fact that by attacking I might make my problem worse really affected me! I love figures with a psychological effect, and I really like these guys now!

With T-B-R, they are actually awesome. So many posters seem to be missing out on their potential. Versus ranged low attack/defense squads they have awesome potential. T-B-R can tie up a part of a ranged squad. They have to attack him or disengage! If they hit, He Will bring in dividers to further tie them up when he bleeds. (notice the boldface -- there's no die rolling here unless T-B-R is already badly wounded).

My theoryscape is how well they can protect large ranged figures like Nilf or Braxas! I have not played Nilf (he's too popular, and I am partial to the neglected figures), but Braxas falls mainly to 4 person squad range (her high life but low def. make her vulnerable to multiple attacks). Marro Dividers will tie up ranged squads so well, that Braxas should be able to move to the center of the board with relative impunity! I'm sorry to be so dramatic, but that's been the only frustrating thing about Braxas (other than a bad d20 run, but that comes with the territory). You can't get her into position amongst 4-attack ranged squads without her going down too fast!

Back to dividers -- the cool thing is the abilit to avoid using order markers. You don't waste order markers on Dividers in the hopes that T-B-N transports some into battle -- NO! You just let the Dividers tie up figures over and over again -- transporting and dividing -- while you move in a heavy hitter like Nilf or Braxas to start killing the squad members!

I have not had the opportunity to test this on the field, but it seems one of the most brilliantly designed squads due to the fact that their best abillity does not require an order marker! You can keep order markers on your best units after sending in T-B-N (and hoping he just gets wounded over and over again -- almost like Krug! the more wounds the better!).

Anyone use these guys this way? I think the results would be great!

[killercactus]

In a higher point game, I'd like to try TBR + Hive + Stingers + Dividers.

The Hive can activate either Marro squad, and can focus on the Stingers until TBR brings some Dividers into the fray, and then switch. It'd have to be a pretty high point game though...

[Jexik]

I'm not sure that TBR really adds that much, but I'm definitely convinced that the Dividers are reasonably solid. TBR can only get one attack per turn- he's just way too easy to ignore or surround and kill. Maybe if you have to protect your Krav or something... but he seems like a waste most of the time.

Dividers though- tough little squad for their cost. I think they can do well as a melee screen or as the bulk of an army.

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Dividers though- tough little squad for their cost. I think they can do well as a melee screen or as the bulk of an army.

Agreed. I played Dividers on Saturday and was pleased with their performance as a screen. weesel99 played 6 squads as the bulk of his army and went 4-1.

[playa1]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I'm not sure that TBR really adds that much, but I'm definitely convinced that the Dividers are reasonably solid. TBR can only get one attack per turn- he's just way too easy to ignore or surround and kill. Maybe if you have to protect your Krav or something... but he seems like a waste most of the time.

Dividers though- tough little squad for their cost. I think they can do well as a melee screen or as the bulk of an army.

What other melee figure can engage 4th Mass, Redcoats, Laglor, Nakita, Elves, or whatever without ever being fired upon? I like TBR if for no other reason than the originality. "Hmmm. How do I get at a mass of 4th Mass. without dying on the way?" You've got Srgt. Drake, Elite Onyx, and now TBR. What is more TBR can bring melee squad figs with him once he's there.

I have not played him (just got the fig yesterday!) but he seems a vital part to the anti-range abilities of the dividers. He is pretty costly, though, and will probably not last more than a round against a mass of 4th Mass. I would assume you'd have 3-4 dividers there by then, though.

[Jexik]

I played 3x Glads, 3x Blasts, Raelin, against someone using TBR on Saturday, and I chose to ignore him, until I could surround him with 4 'trons. He can't teleport next to a Gladiatron, and once I decided to attack him, he died in just one or two turns, unable to teleport any reinforcements because there was nowhere to put them.