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  #15001  
Old September 10th, 2014, 09:32 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

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Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
If theme is your only hang-up, I think you are way off base. Swarm movement is when 6+ figures are moving all at once, his idea still keeps the number of figures moving per OM limited to just 3. We see 4 figure squads with bonding move 5 figures per OM so 3 figures moving is definitely not swarming in nature. He is just allowing you to potentially attack with a different 3 figures that what you moved, which I see as akin to covering fire or tactical assault and containment maneuvers. The M.R.D. Troopers are a highly trained elite fighting force specifically tasked with taking Mutants head on, they should have much more effective combat tactics then a group of petty street thugs. Honestly with 5 range, 3 defense, & 1 life the best case scenario where you are moving 3 Troopers up from the rear or flanking with them while 3 different Troopers are in a position to not move yet still fire on someone will not be the common situation. More often then not you will still be moving into position and then firing with that same figure. Once a Trooper is in position to fire without needing to move, he won't live all that long. Even Jubilee will be able to reliably take out at least one of the Troopers with her 4 attack dice and she is just a sidekick activation after a better mutant gets to go.
First off, that is what I was aiming for so thanks for clarification @Yodaking .

Secondly, dok is your only hangup the fact that it doesn't play by the rules of classic in relation to common squads vs common heroes or is there something else because I have seen support both in the sanctums and in the public for using low powered Common Heroes with a power that lets them act like a Squad so if there is no game breaking issue we may have to just agree to disagree on this one. (and before anyone jumps to any conclusions know that I respect the heck out of dok as he hopefully knows from our other threads which is why I am trying to see his issues)

For reference here was my initial inspiration...

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
The biggest thing I'd love to see on these Kree cards is more cross-card, whole-faction synergy. I think many more of the powers should interact with all Krees or all common Krees rather than just their distinct type, in order to let the cards shine as a cohesive invasion force a bit better.
That's exactly what I was thinking when I outlined the Kree Faction way back when. When we decided that the Kree Scouts could teleport in any Kree Hero, the vision of a modular army of "squads" that you could assemble yourself, out of a bunch of different types of Kree, came to mind immediately. Definitely the vision we should be working with. Ideally I'd like a faction without ANY squads, and have all synergies refer to Kree Heroes with various levels of specificity.
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to the entire post. Good stuff.
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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Better tactics than SHIELD Agents?
Overall probably not but in the specific training to deal with Mutants...maybe. What about having great tactics just not being able to execute in the same efficiency as SHIELD Agents. What if they were reduced to 30 points each so that a "squad" of three was now 90 points. This can be accomplished with an adjustment to the D20 roll or maybe a reduction in Range or Attack or Defense...I'm asking here.

I'm open to suggestions as I really would like to get these guys into C3G. They are a little niche but considering the number of Mutants in the C3G Marvel universe, it's a big niche. However the common heroes working as a small squad is one thing I am pretty passionate about here.

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  #15002  
Old September 10th, 2014, 10:24 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

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Originally Posted by japes View Post
These are the guys we are planning on using for M.R.D. troopers...


Field Agent #084 Horrorclix Base Set
or

Field Agent #082 Horrorclix Base Set
Mainly because we got a few of them in a yard sale recently for $0.50 each
Just a heads up @japes , these look tough and slightly expensive to get based on a quick search of a few sites.
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  #15003  
Old September 10th, 2014, 11:18 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

I see you are right. wow. I really scored here then didn't I? And to think I was hesitant to pay $0.50 for these guys. I can probably find a better option for the general public. Thanks G-O.

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  #15004  
Old September 10th, 2014, 11:35 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Yeah, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. FWIW I've had this argument before, more than once, with respect to various customs in various projects.

People always seem to want to get away from the need to move and attack with the same figures. I've heard the "oh, these guys are good with tactics" or "it's totally natural for an army to bring up reinforcements while some guys are fighting" arguments more than once. Of course, this is true for a wide variety of armies both in classic and in C3G. The Roman legion was renowned for exactly this sort of organization, and SHIELD agents are of course supposed to be highly disciplined.

Making decisions about whether to move up figures from the back or attack with figures from the front, and trying to maintain cohesion in your attack force, is one of the most important and tricky skills when playing Heroscape. To me, when you get rid of this natural tension that comes with playing commons, you lose a big part of the fun and challenge of those armies.

As for the matter of being able to draft any number instead of specific numbers, I'm sympathetic. Check out the first thread I ever started on Heroscapers, after all. (That was a long time ago, wow.) But particularly in the context of C3G and its huge point totals, this is a really, really minor issue. I definitely wouldn't suggest common heroes with the clunky extra power just so that you could draft them in any number. Just houserule that, as many people do (you see it all the time in C3G playtests) and you're fine.
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  #15005  
Old September 10th, 2014, 11:41 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Why not make it an either or power, then you comments could change it to where you could move forward with more than 3.
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  #15006  
Old September 10th, 2014, 11:54 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Better tactics than SHIELD Agents?
Not better, different. Shield Agents have the kill box which is far superior and can then move up a hero Agent figure using covering fire.
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  #15007  
Old September 10th, 2014, 11:56 AM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Yeah, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. FWIW I've had this argument before, more than once, with respect to various customs in various projects.

People always seem to want to get away from the need to move and attack with the same figures. I've heard the "oh, these guys are good with tactics" or "it's totally natural for an army to bring up reinforcements while some guys are fighting" arguments more than once. Of course, this is true for a wide variety of armies both in classic and in C3G. The Roman legion was renowned for exactly this sort of organization, and SHIELD agents are of course supposed to be highly disciplined.

Making decisions about whether to move up figures from the back or attack with figures from the front, and trying to maintain cohesion in your attack force, is one of the most important and tricky skills when playing Heroscape. To me, when you get rid of this natural tension that comes with playing commons, you lose a big part of the fun and challenge of those armies.
I see so it's not the fact that you get three activations per order marker that really bothers you but more the option of attacking with a different three. OK I understand that point now and see your arguement. I was misunderstanding your objections which is why I was continuing the dialog to get clarification. Thanks for taking the time to come back and continue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
As for the matter of being able to draft any number instead of specific numbers, I'm sympathetic. Check out the first thread I ever started on Heroscapers, after all. (That was a long time ago, wow.) But particularly in the context of C3G and its huge point totals, this is a really, really minor issue. I definitely wouldn't suggest common heroes with the clunky extra power just so that you could draft them in any number. Just houserule that, as many people do (you see it all the time in C3G playtests) and you're fine.

Maybe so but I also thought it was generally frowned upon to split common squads. Even in the poll attached to your thread there was only a total 25.8% that liked the idea of splitting the squads into partial squads. and there were more than 67% that flat out didn't like it.

I guess in C3G I'd like to hear how often if ever do people allow splitting of Common Squads. Also has this ever come up in any "official" events either online or in person?

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  #15008  
Old September 10th, 2014, 12:05 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Better tactics than SHIELD Agents?
Not better, different. Shield Agents have the kill box which is far superior and can then move up a hero Agent figure using covering fire.
Plus you could argue that being able to split a squad and have say 5 Agents is not properly balanced since the 2 extra Agents are more than 2/3 of an increase in cost over the first squad due to the easier ability to set up the kill box with more options.

1 squad + 2/3 of a squad does not equal 1 2/3 the point cost but probably closer to the full 2 squad cost than 1 2/3. But that's just the engineer in me thinking about numbers.

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  #15009  
Old September 10th, 2014, 12:27 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

My point about tactics was completely and exclusively related to dok's point.

If they can move guys up from the back while attacking with guys on the front because they are "extra-tactical" shouldn't other squads that are also "extra-tactical" have that ability? That is all I was trying to point out. Admittedly SHIELD Agents do have a similar ability, so they may have been a bad example. But what about other more tactical squads, like the Romans in Classic? dok's point (and I agree with him) is that sort of move with these guys and attack with those other guys has a Heroscape precedent of being a power for mindless, mega-swarming squads, not squads that are more tactical.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #15010  
Old September 10th, 2014, 01:09 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

We're not in the business of concerning ourselves with comparisons to Valhallascape.

That said, I'm not sure these guys are "tactical enough" to thematically justify it.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


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  #15011  
Old September 10th, 2014, 01:10 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
My point about tactics was completely and exclusively related to dok's point.

If they can move guys up from the back while attacking with guys on the front because they are "extra-tactical" shouldn't other squads that are also "extra-tactical" have that ability? That is all I was trying to point out. Admittedly SHIELD Agents do have a similar ability, so they may have been a bad example. But what about other more tactical squads, like the Romans in Classic? dok's point (and I agree with him) is that sort of move with these guys and attack with those other guys has a Heroscape precedent of being a power for mindless, mega-swarming squads, not squads that are more tactical.
My knowledge of Classic is very limited so precedents set there were not on my radar so I appretiate the knowledge.

It's good that you did bring up the SHIELD Agents because it is a good baseline. In my mind I see the SHIELD Agents being better overall but when facing Mutants the MRD using their Negation Tech would be equivalent to SHIELD Agents which is why I am aiming for somewhere between 30 and 40 points per Trooper.

All this in consideration if this is pursued as is would that "cover and advance" ability increase there cost beyond my scope. For me I'm more concerned with getting the cost in the stated range and using them as a squad than I am with the cover and advace aspect. Sure I think it would be a fun tactic but if it is to powerful I am fine with saving it for some other more advanced squad.


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That said, I'm not sure these guys are "tactical enough" to thematically justify it.
Fair enough... see above

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  #15012  
Old September 10th, 2014, 01:21 PM
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Re: Public Design Post

I can live with this if it is more acceptable. It would probably be easier to test anyway.

NAME = M.R.D. TROOPER
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = COMMON HERO
CLASS = TROOPERS
PERSONALITY = DEDICATED

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 40

MUTANT ASSAULT FORCE
After revealing an Order Marker on this card (OPTIONAL: if your opponent has a Mutant on the map) you may move and attack with up to three M.R.D. Troopers you control. You may attack with any M.R.D. Troopers, even a M.R.D. Troopers that you did not move this turn.

ANTI-MUTANT TECHNOLOGY 16
If a defending Mutant figure receives one or more wounds from this attack and is not destroyed, you may immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 16 or higher that Mutant figure cannot use any special powers for the remainder of the round.


My plan is to use a three level testing...since a single 1 vs 1 would be useless here

Pyro 120 vs 3@40 or 4@30 of these guys for a small test
Wolverine 280 vs 8@35 for a medium test
and maybe a Nightcrawler 140 + Jubilee 60 vs 5@40

Am I way off

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