[AotV] Pre-Brainstorming Thread

[flameslayer93]

No worries on whether or not sand should be the target terrain here, though I do worry about designing a unit to use weird tiles before the wierd tiles are designed. I also really worry about how that would go through the SoV - having a power that relies on unofficial terrain sounds like a no-go for them. The SoV isn’t goal #1, but it is a secondary goal.

And yeah, I recall your old statue design rocking a similar feel. Very tangible power.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

In the discord Necroblade raised some thematic concerns regarding the size of the Parasites and their Clinging Embrace power, specifically whether small or medium heroes would realistically be able to drag these things along when the parasites themselves are fairly large. I think its a valid concern that could be addressed a few ways. The most obvious option would be to make Clinging Embrace only work with large or huge heroes. If this weren't part of a master set I think that would be a good solution, but I'm hesitant create a unit that will only work with Ozuul.

Another (potentially too wonky) way to explain how Clinging Embrace works could be to lean into the Voidspawn lore... Ozuul already can manipulate gravity, so maybe along those lines this species (assuming the Parasites and Ozuul are from the same planet) is affected by gravity differently and they are actually fairly light relative to their size?

I have absolutely no qualms with the Scions being dragged along by small/medium heroes as well. It's a little wonky to be sure, but so is an ant being turned into a Zombie of Morindan when it dies. IMO, this is one of those "game first, simulation later" situations.

If it's a bother thematically, then it can just be renamed anyway--like you said, limiting Clinging Embrace to only Ozuul in this set (or even him and the Ukushisa) would be pretty underwhelming.

Another option could be to replace Clinging Embrace with a bonding type power.
Something like:

PSYCHIC BONDING
Before taking a turn with Voidspawn Parasites, you may first take a turn with any hero you control that is adjacent to at least one Voidspawn Parasite you control.

I'm hesitant to go that far if only because of how it limits the design space for all heroes. Some units like Kato Katsuro (unfortunately) don't require Order Markers to use multiple activations. Even if there aren't any problematic cases right now (Kato would hardly be the best choice for these guys), it could limit future Unique Heroes and their design space.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Personally I think even a flat +1/+1 to any Hero could be more problematic than it's worth. Synergies are typically tied to one or more attributes like Species, Class, or Personality to make it easier not to accidentally break them.

I also think Clinging Embrace is a terrible name, or at least it could lean on the Voidspawn lore more, like Gravity Drag or something. That would also help explain why even small and medium heroes can "carry" them (they're not so small themselves).

The flat +1/+1 to any hero would definitely be something to test carefully, but I don't think that it's untenable with the high chance of an auto-wound after each turn or round.

Clinging Embrace is a nice little nod to the other parasitic monsters in VC, but any name would work, especially when we have Ozuul manipulating gravity as he sees fit.

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Over in the discord, I casually tossed out an idea to give at least 1 unit in the box Sand Strength: +1 attack and defense while sitting on a sand space.

It caused a lot of flak, with several folks saying they weren’t in favor of it mainly because terrain based powers historically suck. I dig that. I really do.

I have no problems at all with using Sand Strength if it fits the design. I don't feel obligated to do so, but plenty of other terrain releases have a unit boosted by that terrain.

It is worth noting that we'll probably need to rule the basic sand tiles on the cardboard mats as sand, though (I'd imagine the 3D hexes will be sandstone or the like). This means that the vast majority of our battlefields are going to be built out of sand, so the unit would almost always get the bonus in this box and need to be balanced as such.

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Over in the discord, I casually tossed out an idea to give at least 1 unit in the box Sand Strength: +1 attack and defense while sitting on a sand space.

It caused a lot of flak, with several folks saying they weren’t in favor of it mainly because terrain based powers historically suck. I dig that. I really do.

But I’d like to throw out an example of where it might be reasonable without being sucky, nor the core of the design but a thematic augmentation of it.

I present:

Rhinos of the Endless Desert

Jandar/Statues/Unique Squad/Dauntless/Medium 6

1 Life/3 Troops/4 Move/1 Range/2 Attack/4 Defense

Living Statues: If there are no unrevealed order markers on this Army Card, add 2 to the defense of this Army Card. If there are revealed order markers on this Army Card, add 1 to the move of this Army Card for every revealed Order Marker.

Desert Strength: Rhinos of the Endless Desert on a Sand space roll 1 additional combat die when attacking or defending.

70 points

The idea is that the Rhinos are squarely in the defender role, charging into battle to engage intruders and being from the desert itself, they’ve mastered fighting in it. After they have reached a comfortable position in battle, they know how to hunker down and use their stony bodies to their advantage. They’ll lose this bonus once they start moving, but once they do they go surprisingly fast. The stats can naturally be tweaked, but the idea is there.

I also argue that a sand terrain power fits because its very simple to implement, it offers another power direction we can give to the Master Set which is something that will help sell the box to new ‘scapers, it introduces the concept of the power to new players, and sand is pretty common on competitive maps anyway so its not like the power won’t *ever* get used. We don’t have to give the Angel statue the power, either. Carr didn’t get Stealth Dodge after all.

I do really like this direction for Living Statues. Although I wonder if the power would be a little more intuitive if the defense boost was given as long as there are no revealed order markers on the card. That way both parts of the power reference the same thing, rather than the defense boost checking for unrevealed order markers, and the movement boost checking for revealed order markers.

If only for the sake of unit diversity, I'm still not sold on the idea of a terrain based power. With the exception of the Marro Warriors, most terrain based units just don't feel good to play when you know you're not getting your full potential out of them. Even if they're technically still balanced on maps without sand, psychologically I just don't think most new players are going to feel good about it. However, its not a hill I'd die on, just a personal preference.

[flameslayer93]

Woops! Living Statues is supposed to only apply the defense if there are no revealed markers. My mistake.

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Woops! Living Statues is supposed to only apply the defense if there are no revealed markers. My mistake.

In that case I love it

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I'm hesitant to go that far if only because of how it limits the design space for all heroes. Some units like Kato Katsuro (unfortunately) don't require Order Markers to use multiple activations. Even if there aren't any problematic cases right now (Kato would hardly be the best choice for these guys), it could limit future Unique Heroes and their design space.

Bummer, when I was thinking through how this would work I specifically checked the cards for Ornak, Kantono Daishi and Lao Xin to see how their commander affects were worded for that very reason, and I thought it would be okay because of the order marker requirement. Forgot about Kato Katsuro. I'm guessing most future c3v commander type heroes would have a similar order marker requirement so it wouldn't actually be an issue, but I understand the concerns about potentially limiting the design space. Basically, these guys just need some kind of ability that lets them keep up with the heroes they're boosting. As far as the power level of the unrestricted bonding goes, in practice I don't think it would actually prove to be much more powerful than Clinging Embrace, mainly because these guys would have such minimal offensive potential. Ninety percent of the time the bonding would just provide a means of moving the parasites adjacent to the hero that they bonded with, which is the same result as them being carried by Clinging Embrace (which I am totally open to renaming). If anything, Clinging Embrace is going to be more useful than Psychic Bonding because with Clinging Embrace the parasites can take advantage of the hero's movement abilities like flying, as well as "slingshot" around the hero to position themselves on spaces they couldn't reach using Psychic Bonding and 5 movement.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Personally I think even a flat +1/+1 to any Hero could be more problematic than it's worth. Synergies are typically tied to one or more attributes like Species, Class, or Personality to make it easier not to accidentally break them.

I definitely understand the hesitancy to give these guys unrestricted synergy with any unique hero, but I agree with Astro that I don't think its untenable. I also think the argument could be made that if there's any place for an unrestricted aura type power, its in a master set. Players with only a few different units in their collection will really benefit if most of those units can function well when combined together in many different configurations. And that's historically what we've seen in the master sets. I know none of us want to create another RotV Raelin, but the original master sets also gave us Finn, Thorgrim, and SotM Raelin who were all designed to work well with a wide variety of units, and none of those have proven problematic.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

Bummer, when I was thinking through how this would work I specifically checked the cards for Ornak, Kantono Daishi and Lao Xin to see how their commander affects were worded for that very reason, and I thought it would be okay because of the order marker requirement. Forgot about Kato Katsuro. I'm guessing most future c3v commander type heroes would have a similar order marker requirement so it wouldn't actually be an issue, but I understand the concerns about potentially limiting the design space. Basically, these guys just need some kind of ability that lets them keep up with the heroes they're boosting. As far as the power level of the unrestricted bonding goes, in practice I don't think it would actually prove to be much more powerful than Clinging Embrace, mainly because these guys would have such minimal offensive potential. Ninety percent of the time the bonding would just provide a means of moving the parasites adjacent to the hero that they bonded with, which is the same result as them being carried by Clinging Embrace (which I am totally open to renaming). If anything, Clinging Embrace is going to be more useful than Psychic Bonding because with Clinging Embrace the parasites can take advantage of the hero's movement abilities like flying, as well as "slingshot" around the hero to position themselves on spaces they couldn't reach using Psychic Bonding and 5 movement.

Yeah, it probably won't be an issue in any VC releases (they've generally been much better about including OM language anyway), but I'm still hesitant to go ahead with that.

I do agree with you that it isn't actually a big buff in terms of strength--if anything, it makes them weaker, like you said. You lose out on the guaranteed placement, have to limit yourself to 5 move in many cases, lose out on the attack bonus if you had to move, and generally have less Order Marker security if you're placing it on the Unique 1L/4D parasites. The extra 3 minimal attacks aren't worth it, IMO--the squad will be more fun and effective if they're literally just parasites following around your hero.

[flameslayer93]

Just a couple tosser ideas...

Shadows of War
4-men 4 move 1 range 2 attack 2 defense

Deadly Strike
Slow Reaction: Shadows of War cannot give leaving engagement attacks.

Shadows of Gluttony
3-men 4 move 1 range 3 attack 3 defense

Endless Hunger: If a Shadow of Gluttony destroys a figure, it must attack again.

Statue of Hope
3 Life 5 Move 1 Range 2 Attack 6 Defense

Stone’s Blessing: Begin the game with 4 Blessing markers on this Army Card. Before attacking with Statue of Hope, choose a unique figure within 4 clear sight spaces of it and place either an Attack Blessing or Defense Blessing on its Army Card. If that Army Card already had a Blessing, remove the old one. Figures with the Attack Blessing receive +1 attack. Figures with the Defense Blessing receive +1 defense.
Flying

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Just a couple tosser ideas...

Shadows of War
4-men 4 move 1 range 2 attack 2 defense

Deadly Strike
Slow Reaction: Shadows of War cannot give leaving engagement attacks.

Shadows of Gluttony
3-men 4 move 1 range 3 attack 3 defense

Endless Hunger: If a Shadow of Gluttony destroys a figure, it must attack again.

Statue of Hope
3 Life 5 Move 1 Range 2 Attack 6 Defense

Stone’s Blessing: Begin the game with 4 Blessing markers on this Army Card. Before attacking with Statue of Hope, choose a unique figure within 4 clear sight spaces of it and place either an Attack Blessing or Defense Blessing on its Army Card. If that Army Card already had a Blessing, remove the old one. Figures with the Attack Blessing receive +1 attack. Figures with the Defense Blessing receive +1 defense.
Flying

These are some good ideas! With only four move and 2 defense I don't think the shadows of war will do a whole lot, but that's okay because we do want to have a diverse set of point values.

The Shadows of Gluttony are also nice and simple, but Endless Hunger would still involve some interesting tactical considerations.

The statue idea is very neat, and actually pretty similar to an idea I was toying around with for Kiora:

Blessing of the Hidden Stars

After moving and before attacking, you may choose a unique hero within 6 clear sight spaces of Kiora and place a blessing token on their army card. If the chosen hero is not within 6 clear sight spaces of Kiora at the start of their turn, remove the blessing token from their card. Add 1 attack and 1 defense to any card with a blessing token on it.

I'm guessing that for the statue there would be two different kinds of blessing markers? As written I'm not sure how you would distinguish between different kinds of blessings. Other than that though I think its a cool idea, and its definitely an interesting and unique alternative to the standard "aura style" of buffing.

[flameslayer93]

Ah, there are two sided markers in one of the boxes. One side has Swords and the other has Shields. Pretty easy to differentiate the two with that in mind.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Ah, there are two sided markers in one of the boxes. One side has Swords and the other has Shields. Pretty easy to differentiate the two with that in mind.

It is also worth noting that classic HeroScape has no way to distinguish between double-sided markers. I'd be open to exploring that mechanic, but it's definitely pushing new territory mechanically and would require some new rules definitions that people might not be comfortable with making.

I like the uncommon statlines you've proposed. It's kind of problematic for the Shadows of War, giving off some Einar Imperium vibes (4 attacks of 2 with Deadly Strike is very dangerous, but 4 move with 2 defense means they probably won't get to take advantage of it), but overall I really like pushing for some less beefy Unique Squads.

[flameslayer93]

Of any possible upcomming rules additions (Pillars of Har, Weird Spaces, and possibly a transforming werewolf), I suspect double sided markers will be the tamest one and the least likely to catch flak. After all, those pieces actually come in the box.